1500hr / ATP for Part 121 rule passes
08-21-2010, 11:45 PM
#451
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Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Baron B-55 Left Seat
Posts: 95
And you are saying that "we" are being disrespectful to you by:
1) not knowing us
2) never have flown with us
3) having no other information about us
Take a look in the mirror. All this talk about all of "us" generalizing you, when all you are doing is generalizing all of "us". And if you are so unhappy with the type of people that you will someday be flying with, then maybe you should find another career with people that will make you feel better about yourself.
1) not knowing us
2) never have flown with us
3) having no other information about us
Take a look in the mirror. All this talk about all of "us" generalizing you, when all you are doing is generalizing all of "us". And if you are so unhappy with the type of people that you will someday be flying with, then maybe you should find another career with people that will make you feel better about yourself.
I have tried extremely hard not to generalize all captains or high time guys on these forums into this group of bitter ones who uses these terms. If i did generalize anywhere before or from now on i apologize sincerely. It is only those who choose to degrade any low time guy by generalizing them that i am after here.
08-22-2010, 12:09 AM
#452
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Baron B-55 Left Seat
Posts: 95
Everyone here knows how i stand in this argument, Therefore i will cease my end of this argument, If you wish to talk to me further about this feel free to PM me. I will not be checking this anymore.
Save the snide rude comments like "80ktsClamp's" they are un-needed and only make matters worse.
It was a pleasure debating with you all.
Good luck to all
Save the snide rude comments like "80ktsClamp's" they are un-needed and only make matters worse.
It was a pleasure debating with you all.
Good luck to all
08-22-2010, 05:41 PM
#454
Moderator
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: Tiki bar
Posts: 2,634
There was not a shortage of pilots, just a shortage of pilots willing to accept the low paying jobs that the regionals were offering. There hasn't been a true pilot shortage in recent history and I don't see one coming any time soon. We can only hope that the 1500/ATP rule will help thin the pool enough to put the bargaining chips back in our laps.
08-22-2010, 06:05 PM
#455
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Posts: 754
Hey guys,
I hate to say it but asims33 has some good points. You cannot blame a low timer for taking the RJFO job. Every one of us will do what it takes to get an inch ahead and if you pretend to disagree you are a liar, or even worse, a loser! In fact most of your RJ-pilots got hired with less than 1500 hours in recent years. The only two things that determine the qualification level of the hiring pool are regs and the market, not the applicant.
Also quit the "I, as the commander would have you thrown off my plane" BS. Puffing out your feathers like that will only land you a couple of extra free CRM classes.
Come on guys, we know that the 1500hour rule is right. Don't mock the low-timers and don't pull up the ladder behind you. Lets give them our moral support since they are the ones who have to deal with the realities of the change.
I hate to say it but asims33 has some good points. You cannot blame a low timer for taking the RJFO job. Every one of us will do what it takes to get an inch ahead and if you pretend to disagree you are a liar, or even worse, a loser! In fact most of your RJ-pilots got hired with less than 1500 hours in recent years. The only two things that determine the qualification level of the hiring pool are regs and the market, not the applicant.
Also quit the "I, as the commander would have you thrown off my plane" BS. Puffing out your feathers like that will only land you a couple of extra free CRM classes.
Come on guys, we know that the 1500hour rule is right. Don't mock the low-timers and don't pull up the ladder behind you. Lets give them our moral support since they are the ones who have to deal with the realities of the change.
08-22-2010, 08:09 PM
#456
Eats shoots and leaves...
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Didactic Synthetic Aviation Experience Provider
Posts: 849
So by that logic you punish those taking the job that they have dreamed of, and taking a job that will put food on the table instead of scraping the bottom of cans for food...
{snip}
I would and i wouldn't care at all what you thought because my mission is to feed my family even if that means having a few bitter captains hating me over it.
{snip}
I would and i wouldn't care at all what you thought because my mission is to feed my family even if that means having a few bitter captains hating me over it.
Ok, well 2 years ago there WAS a shortage of pilots, thats why they were hired with so few hours.... You prob wont find any 250 hour pilots in 121 today and if you do there arent many at all. So yes it does fit. If the heart surgeon world looked like the airlines did 2 years ago, there would be lesser experienced heart surgeons going to work.
If the heart surgeon world looked like the airline world two years ago, hospitals would be hiring EMT-B's as surgeons and paying them EMT-B wages because experienced surgeons wouldn't work for $#!+ wages. Quit deluding yourself.
Again we arent talking about now, we are talking about 2 years ago when there WAS a shortage, there were no "short-cuts" At 250 hours you are a commercial pilot, just like all the other ones, just a lesser experienced one, This is the issue, the bitter guys who use these degrading terms all have that in common, they look at is as a short-cut, these guys trained for their commercial just as hard as you did back when you got it, the only short-cut here is they got hired sooner, which really isnt them cutting corners more than it is them getting lucky. That is bitterness on your part in its essence.
There is a short cut - the airlines realized they could get pilots with wet certificates for little more than the promise of flying a shiny jet (I'm assuming you also have an issue with the terms SJS).
Like I said before - it's basic Economics 101: There is an opportunity cost for everything. You want to fly a shiny jet with less experience required to operate as a Part 135 PIC VFR, you probably aren't going to be too well respected by those who scraped, scrapped, and clawed their way to 2500-4000 hours to get into the right seat of a turboprop and moved up from there. Sorry, that's life.
They may not warmly accept them but their would be no name calling and again my analogy was if there were a shortage like there was a shortage in the airlines 2 years ago.
Its not a matter of comprehension its a matter of respect, i keep saying it and I dont know how YOU guys cant comprehend that... People dont like to be un-justly disrespected.
You cannot argue that this is a generalization and a ridiculous one at that.
You can get angry about low time guys getting hired, but you cannot get angry at them for making the same damn decision that you would if you were eating bread and peanut butter every night. They are trying to better their lives and if they are offered a job they would be absolutely stupid not to accept it. I know i would and so would you. So stop this nonsense as its not helping anything in fact its only hurting things. You are damaging relationships with fellow pilots before they have even begun.
08-22-2010, 09:01 PM
#457
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 39
First I want to apologize for not reading the entire thread and asking a question that was probably already debated 
At one point a senator from North Dakota (I think) was lobbying for a lower hourly requirement for Commercial Aviation majors ... did that stick?
At one point a senator from North Dakota (I think) was lobbying for a lower hourly requirement for Commercial Aviation majors ... did that stick?
08-22-2010, 09:34 PM
#458
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Missionary
Posts: 309
I've already stated that I don't blame the individuals, that said there are costs to everything...
... or an idiot. There hasn't been a real shortage ...
...
There is a short cut - the airlines realized they could get pilots with wet certificates for little more than the promise of flying a shiny jet (I'm assuming you also have an issue with the terms SJS).
..., you probably aren't going to be too well respected by those who scraped, scrapped, and clawed their way to 2500-4000 hours to get into the right seat of a turboprop and moved up from there. Sorry, that's life.
....
But it's OK for a slew of inexperienced pilots to come in and undercut everyone else to get ahead. Someday you may see things a little differently.
... Like I said, anyone is free to make that choice if it's available - just like anyone is free to cross a picket line to advance themselves (and just to be clear - I am NOT equating the two, but there are some similarities). You do so at the risk of others respect for you. It's your choice to do so.
... or an idiot. There hasn't been a real shortage ...
...
There is a short cut - the airlines realized they could get pilots with wet certificates for little more than the promise of flying a shiny jet (I'm assuming you also have an issue with the terms SJS).
..., you probably aren't going to be too well respected by those who scraped, scrapped, and clawed their way to 2500-4000 hours to get into the right seat of a turboprop and moved up from there. Sorry, that's life.
....
But it's OK for a slew of inexperienced pilots to come in and undercut everyone else to get ahead. Someday you may see things a little differently.
... Like I said, anyone is free to make that choice if it's available - just like anyone is free to cross a picket line to advance themselves (and just to be clear - I am NOT equating the two, but there are some similarities). You do so at the risk of others respect for you. It's your choice to do so.
But, to say "there are a slew of pilots willing to undercut...taking shortcuts (cheating)...similarities between SCABS and low timers" (paraphrased). Huh?
The unions and companies agree to the wage scales. They were probably just as crappy paying when you started with your 2,500 hours (or whatever), so are you saying it's okay to fly pipeline, cfi, etc. and THEN undercut everybody at that crappy 1st job?
Last edited by NoStep; 08-23-2010 at 07:25 AM. Reason: deleted flamebait
08-23-2010, 03:29 PM
#459
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Baron B-55 Left Seat
Posts: 95
I've already stated that I don't blame the individuals, that said there are costs to everything. When the majority of those already in the profession believe that 300 hour pilots getting hired is extremely detrimental to the profession as a whole, you have to expect there is going to be resentment towards those who are willing to take the short cut.
OK, I've tried to be respectful, but if you really believe this you are either completely ignorant of this profession (which you claim not to be) or an idiot. There hasn't been a real shortage of pilots in the last 25+ years. A shortage of experienced pilots willing to work for crap wages, yes - but not a shortage of experienced pilots.
Like I said before - it's basic Economics 101: There is an opportunity cost for everything. You want to fly a shiny jet with less experience required to operate as a Part 135 PIC VFR, you probably aren't going to be too well respected by those who scraped, scrapped, and clawed their way to 2500-4000 hours to get into the right seat of a turboprop and moved up from there. Sorry, that's life.
Turn the telescope around and look at it the other way. This profession is being undercut and eroded by a slew of pilots willing to work as AIRLINE PILOTS (not pipeline patrol, flying skydivers, or even CFI'ing) for next to nothing. Like I said, anyone is free to make that choice if it's available - just like anyone is free to cross a picket line to advance themselves (and just to be clear - I am NOT equating the two, but there are some similarities). You do so at the risk of others respect for you. It's your choice to do so.
Turn the telescope around huh? So it is me coming here and degrading you? And by doing so I am the one damaging relationships?
All of this BS can be answered by 1 question that you are avoiding like the plague.
If you mr high and mighty i worked 3000 hours before i got hired. Were offered a job when you only had 300 hours, flying a shiny jet making crap wages that were still better than what you were making at the time. WOULD YOU TAKE IT?
After you answer that one, answer this.... Why in gods name would the pilots that need to strike against terrible wages be the ones that ARENT EVEN HIRED YET. By your logic you say that we should turn down jobs because we are low time and we are enabling the airlines to continue paying **** wages. Have you forgotten that its YOUR union and YOUR company that decides YOUR wages? Not the 300 hour guy looking for a job.
If you were offered 800$ more per month for a better job...would you take it? Key words there...BETTER JOB. I would and so would you. Get off your high horse.
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