1500hr / ATP for Part 121 rule passes
08-21-2010, 05:36 AM
#441
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
asims33, I agree 100%. Most of the low time guys can agree low time pilots don't belong in the right seat of 121 planes. The thing only I'm finding interesting is how quickly some of these veteran pilots forget that they were where we are now, starving for time, money, and opportunities...
I'm definitely NOT a veteran pilot (I've only been flying professionally since 2007), so trust me I know what it's like to be in your shoes. But rather than whine and complain as some of you guys are, I made my own opportunities via hard work and networking.
08-21-2010, 07:34 AM
#442
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Furlough/Gun Driver
Posts: 437
asims33, I agree 100%. Most of the low time guys can agree low time pilots don't belong in the right seat of 121 planes. The thing only I'm finding interesting is how quickly some of these veteran pilots forget that they were where we are now, starving for time, money, and opportunities...
The difference is that many of us so called veteran's were not in 121 cockpits with less than 1500 hours. And because so many 250 hour wonders were willing to jump into the 121 world with minimum hours at the first opportunity no matter how little it paid there are now quite a few veterans on the street. Do a little research on the erosion of mainline domestic flying over the past decade. So yeah, there may be a little bitterness when our livelyhood and future is damaged while the paint of our airlines are flown by larger and larger regionals at the lowest competitive bid price. Think about that for a while.
Don't blame management. If people weren't willing to fly for *&%$% wages at regionals to gain experience perhaps there would be more mainline careers for experienced pilots to work at. And with time one day you also will have the experience to fly at a 121 major carrier. Unfortunately you will most likely be lucky to have a career at a regional. Even that is becomeing difficult as when your regional is too expesive it will be replaced by the up and coming new regional. Just look at ACA, Comair, AWAC, and Horizon. At one time all were good solid regional airlines, now they are all struggling because someone is willing to do it cheaper so they can gain that experience that will get them to a major airline. O' wait the majors keep getting smaller as the regionals grow.
Off soap box now.
08-21-2010, 12:00 PM
#443
Line Holder
Joined APC: May 2010
Posts: 89
Wrxpilot,
Thank you for the good advice, your right Denver sucks for flying... But I can't leave here till schools finished.
dosbo,
So if I'm hearing you correctly... "Low timers" are bad, regionals are bad, major airlines are bad, and fire is bad?
Thank you for the good advice, your right Denver sucks for flying... But I can't leave here till schools finished.
dosbo,
So if I'm hearing you correctly... "Low timers" are bad, regionals are bad, major airlines are bad, and fire is bad?
08-21-2010, 06:40 PM
#444
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Furlough/Gun Driver
Posts: 437
Everything has it's place and yes FIRE is bad.
08-21-2010, 08:12 PM
#445
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Baron B-55 Left Seat
Posts: 95
You need to go a bit further back than the last 2-3 years. When people weren't getting hired at a regional (then commuter) until they had 2500-4000 hours, there was no negative term for those newcomers - because they had the requisite experience to belong in that position. People with 300 hours getting hired into an airline seat are being derided because they simply shouldn't be there, regardless reasons which have enabled that circumstance.
Your analogy doesn't fit at all - in our case there are no shortage of "heart surgeons" (experienced airline pilots) - in fact there is a surplus. Again, as I pointed out, I'm guessing there would be a great hue and cry from the AMA and licensed doctors if hospitals suddenly found a way to employ first year med students as surgeons instead of paying the price to get someone with appropriate experience and certification.
If this were the darkest days of WW-II, and we needed all the pilots we could get yesterday, I don't think you would see the derision towards these people that you do. The simple fact is, we aren't, we don't, and those who understand what the appropriate background is and the costs to obtain it hold those who have taken a short cut in disdain.
Also, I must again point out to you the term "250 hour wonder" DOES NOT APPLY TO ALL LOW TIME PILOTS. As I have heard it used, it is applied specifically to those who have been hired on at an airline with substandard experience. I don't really understand your taking such offense to a label which doesn't even apply to you. Are you as upset when someone is branded a liar or a cheat because they made it through college by copying home work and cheating on exams?
Again, I ask you to go have the conversation with your physician relatives, and see if they would accept a flood of 1st year med students as surgeons - ask them if they would warmly accept them and regard them (in general) as colleagues, or would they resent them for cutting corners and taking a short cut that enhanced them personally, but damaged their profession as a whole.
1) Dont know me
2) Has not flown with me
3) Has no information on me other than my hour number.
You cannot argue that this is a generalization and a ridiculous one at that. You can get angry about low time guys getting hired, but you cannot get angry at them for making the same damn decision that you would if you were eating bread and peanut butter every night. They are trying to better their lives and if they are offered a job they would be absolutely stupid not to accept it. I know i would and so would you. So stop this nonsense as its not helping anything in fact its only hurting things. You are damaging relationships with fellow pilots before they have even begun.
08-21-2010, 09:01 PM
#446
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Furlough/Gun Driver
Posts: 437
So by that logic you punish those taking the job that they have dreamed of, and taking a job that will put food on the table instead of scraping the bottom of cans for food... Instead of punishing the flawed system that allowed them in? They should scrape by with the bare minimums and put that dream aside simply because you weren't hired that soon? Sure they arent ready but wouldn't you accept a job at 300 hours if offered? I would and i wouldn't care at all what you thought because my mission is to feed my family even if that means having a few bitter captains hating me over it.
Ok, well 2 years ago there WAS a shortage of pilots, thats why they were hired with so few hours.... You prob wont find any 250 hour pilots in 121 today and if you do there arent many at all. So yes it does fit. If the heart surgeon world looked like the airlines did 2 years ago, there would be lesser experienced heart surgeons going to work.
Again we arent talking about now, we are talking about 2 years ago when there WAS a shortage, there were no "short-cuts" At 250 hours you are a commercial pilot, just like all the other ones, just a lesser experienced one, This is the issue, the bitter guys who use these degrading terms all have that in common, they look at is as a short-cut, these guys trained for their commercial just as hard as you did back when you got it, the only short-cut here is they got hired sooner, which really isnt them cutting corners more than it is them getting lucky. That is bitterness on your part in its essence.
I am taking offense because this is the industry that i will work in and i hate to see so many unprofessional rude people in the industry, i am speaking for other pilots like me whether they are hired or not. And this term HAS been used to describe me when i ask about a job on here i get "oh no not another 250 hour wonder".
They may not warmly accept them but their would be no name calling and again my analogy was if there were a shortage like there was a shortage in the airlines 2 years ago.
Its not a matter of comprehension its a matter of respect, i keep saying it and I dont know how YOU guys cant comprehend that... People dont like to be un-justly disrespected. I am called a 250 hour wonder by people who
1) Dont know me
2) Has not flown with me
3) Has no information on me other than my hour number.
You cannot argue that this is a generalization and a ridiculous one at that. You can get angry about low time guys getting hired, but you cannot get angry at them for making the same damn decision that you would if you were eating bread and peanut butter every night. They are trying to better their lives and if they are offered a job they would be absolutely stupid not to accept it. I know i would and so would you. So stop this nonsense as its not helping anything in fact its only hurting things. You are damaging relationships with fellow pilots before they have even begun.
Ok, well 2 years ago there WAS a shortage of pilots, thats why they were hired with so few hours.... You prob wont find any 250 hour pilots in 121 today and if you do there arent many at all. So yes it does fit. If the heart surgeon world looked like the airlines did 2 years ago, there would be lesser experienced heart surgeons going to work.
Again we arent talking about now, we are talking about 2 years ago when there WAS a shortage, there were no "short-cuts" At 250 hours you are a commercial pilot, just like all the other ones, just a lesser experienced one, This is the issue, the bitter guys who use these degrading terms all have that in common, they look at is as a short-cut, these guys trained for their commercial just as hard as you did back when you got it, the only short-cut here is they got hired sooner, which really isnt them cutting corners more than it is them getting lucky. That is bitterness on your part in its essence.
I am taking offense because this is the industry that i will work in and i hate to see so many unprofessional rude people in the industry, i am speaking for other pilots like me whether they are hired or not. And this term HAS been used to describe me when i ask about a job on here i get "oh no not another 250 hour wonder".
They may not warmly accept them but their would be no name calling and again my analogy was if there were a shortage like there was a shortage in the airlines 2 years ago.
Its not a matter of comprehension its a matter of respect, i keep saying it and I dont know how YOU guys cant comprehend that... People dont like to be un-justly disrespected. I am called a 250 hour wonder by people who
1) Dont know me
2) Has not flown with me
3) Has no information on me other than my hour number.
You cannot argue that this is a generalization and a ridiculous one at that. You can get angry about low time guys getting hired, but you cannot get angry at them for making the same damn decision that you would if you were eating bread and peanut butter every night. They are trying to better their lives and if they are offered a job they would be absolutely stupid not to accept it. I know i would and so would you. So stop this nonsense as its not helping anything in fact its only hurting things. You are damaging relationships with fellow pilots before they have even begun.
1. You cannot feed a family on regional FO wages.
2. There wasn't a shortage of pilots two years ago and there isn't a shortage today. Also no shortage of pilots willing to work for low wages turning a career into a job.
3. The short cut is that these pilots did not build adequate experience prior to entering the 121 world.
4. Ironically you are the one being "Rude" as you put it. When you don't take the time to think about the critiques of those you want to work with that will be your aircraft commader, and I don't use commander lightly. If I had an FO as insubordinate as you seem to be, I would remove him/her from the trip or remove myself whichever the chief pilot preferred.
5. I define someone as a 250 hour wonder when they leave me single pilot in an air carrier operation because they simply cannot keep up, talk on the radios, don't know what they are doing, or are $hitting thier pants because operations are outside the norm from the sim they were trained in during thier initial qual.
Please go back to the beginning of this thread, read the posts from an objective (not personal) point of view and think about it. If you have a wet commercial go instruct, tow banners, traffic watch, whatever. Then fly some serious 135 single pilot IFR operations in the north east during the winter in a light twin. Get some experience then move on to the next step. If you are insistent on going from wet commercial to 121 ops you will be a 250 hour wonder for more time than you realize. I have flown with 800+ hour pilots that were still 250 hour wonders.
Best of luck with this career.
08-21-2010, 09:06 PM
#447
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Pilot
Posts: 2,625
And you are saying that "we" are being disrespectful to you by:
1) not knowing us
2) never have flown with us
3) having no other information about us
Take a look in the mirror. All this talk about all of "us" generalizing you, when all you are doing is generalizing all of "us". And if you are so unhappy with the type of people that you will someday be flying with, then maybe you should find another career with people that will make you feel better about yourself.
1) not knowing us
2) never have flown with us
3) having no other information about us
Take a look in the mirror. All this talk about all of "us" generalizing you, when all you are doing is generalizing all of "us". And if you are so unhappy with the type of people that you will someday be flying with, then maybe you should find another career with people that will make you feel better about yourself.
08-21-2010, 10:02 PM
#448
Da Hudge
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Poodle Whisperer
Posts: 17,473
Honestly, dude... you're not exactly showing any maturity or winning anyone over here. So, let me summarize:
Here is what you typed:
Here is what it reads as:
Here is what you typed:
So by that logic you punish those taking the job that they have dreamed of, and taking a job that will put food on the table instead of scraping the bottom of cans for food... Instead of punishing the flawed system that allowed them in? They should scrape by with the bare minimums and put that dream aside simply because you weren't hired that soon? Sure they arent ready but wouldn't you accept a job at 300 hours if offered? I would and i wouldn't care at all what you thought because my mission is to feed my family even if that means having a few bitter captains hating me over it.
Ok, well 2 years ago there WAS a shortage of pilots, thats why they were hired with so few hours.... You prob wont find any 250 hour pilots in 121 today and if you do there arent many at all. So yes it does fit. If the heart surgeon world looked like the airlines did 2 years ago, there would be lesser experienced heart surgeons going to work.
..... blah blah blah...
....blah blah blah...
You cannot argue that this is a generalization and a ridiculous one at that. You can get angry about low time guys getting hired, but you cannot get angry at them for making the same damn decision that you would if you were eating bread and peanut butter every night. They are trying to better their lives and if they are offered a job they would be absolutely stupid not to accept it. I know i would and so would you. So stop this nonsense as its not helping anything in fact its only hurting things. You are damaging relationships with fellow pilots before they have even begun.
Ok, well 2 years ago there WAS a shortage of pilots, thats why they were hired with so few hours.... You prob wont find any 250 hour pilots in 121 today and if you do there arent many at all. So yes it does fit. If the heart surgeon world looked like the airlines did 2 years ago, there would be lesser experienced heart surgeons going to work.
..... blah blah blah...
....blah blah blah...
You cannot argue that this is a generalization and a ridiculous one at that. You can get angry about low time guys getting hired, but you cannot get angry at them for making the same damn decision that you would if you were eating bread and peanut butter every night. They are trying to better their lives and if they are offered a job they would be absolutely stupid not to accept it. I know i would and so would you. So stop this nonsense as its not helping anything in fact its only hurting things. You are damaging relationships with fellow pilots before they have even begun.
Here is what it reads as:
Originally Posted by asims33
08-21-2010, 11:38 PM
#449
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Baron B-55 Left Seat
Posts: 95
You make more money as a first year FO than i make instructing right now...
Industry had me fooled, when airlines were waiting at big schools like ATP and taking students out of their career pilot programs EARLY to hire them...
I think that is opinionated, my opinion is they got lucky and got hired early, these pilots were prob very willing to work as a CFI they lucked up, were they ready, no, but again i would have taken a job too. Start my career earlier? Heck yea...
Quote where i was rude first of all, and if you do and indeed i was rude i will apologize, 2nd the definition of insubordinate is:
Not submissive to authority
Who here is my authority? I am not refusing orders from any moderators... I am not an FO being told to do something... I am just disagreeing with pilots who happen to be captains, just because i dont agree with some of you does not mean i am wrong, or out of line. If you run your cockpit as a dictatorship like this implies then it would be me asking to be removed from the trip.
YOU define 250 hour wonder as any pilot who leaves YOU as a single pilot... This means YOU take it case by case and that is fine. But others on here do not do this, others on here see 250-350 hours and automatically that person is a 250 hour wonder. I have acknowledged that these guys are not ready for 121 but some of them are very nice guys and some of them are very good pilots and can assist captains just as high time FOs would. I was recently talking to a Captain in Knoxville. He was telling me about the emergency he had to declare last winter, he had a JETPIPEOVRHEAT warning, he was flying with an 800 hour FO, He proceeded to tell me that this FO was better at handling that emergency than most 2000hour FOs would have. Hours arent everything.... And while i say dont hire people with that many hours, once they are hired they deserve respect just like any other person, they are trying to feed their families. And one day when im a captain i will never give an FO **** just because i have to work a bit harder when he/she got hired a bit early, Good for him/her, ill teach him/her what i can and make any positive or negative recommendations to the company after the trip (if their are any)
I plan on flying 135 as soon as i can in fact, but if i were offered a job right now with any regional, i would take it, any guy in my position would. You think the pilots who should take a stand for pay are the ones not even hired yet? Really?
Thank you
4. Ironically you are the one being "Rude" as you put it. When you don't take the time to think about the critiques of those you want to work with that will be your aircraft commader, and I don't use commander lightly. If I had an FO as insubordinate as you seem to be, I would remove him/her from the trip or remove myself whichever the chief pilot preferred.
Not submissive to authority
Who here is my authority? I am not refusing orders from any moderators... I am not an FO being told to do something... I am just disagreeing with pilots who happen to be captains, just because i dont agree with some of you does not mean i am wrong, or out of line. If you run your cockpit as a dictatorship like this implies then it would be me asking to be removed from the trip.
5. I define someone as a 250 hour wonder when they leave me single pilot in an air carrier operation because they simply cannot keep up, talk on the radios, don't know what they are doing, or are $hitting thier pants because operations are outside the norm from the sim they were trained in during thier initial qual.
Please go back to the beginning of this thread, read the posts from an objective (not personal) point of view and think about it. If you have a wet commercial go instruct, tow banners, traffic watch, whatever. Then fly some serious 135 single pilot IFR operations in the north east during the winter in a light twin. Get some experience then move on to the next step. If you are insistent on going from wet commercial to 121 ops you will be a 250 hour wonder for more time than you realize. I have flown with 800+ hour pilots that were still 250 hour wonders.
Thank you
08-21-2010, 11:44 PM
#450
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Baron B-55 Left Seat
Posts: 95
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