asims33

I absolutely agree with you, i did not mean to generalize all of the more experienced pilots into a group that insults and degrades lesser experienced ones and for that i apologize, my only argument here is to get the few that does disrespect us to stop, You can call me lesser experienced because i am. You can say im not ready for 121 because im not. But dont degrade me, thats all i ask.

asims33

Ok let me try to address this all...

I am actually a firefighter (woops) and its no where near this bad in firefighting lol. I went through the hazing and sweeping and moping and cooking and cleaning the trucks but not once was i ever insulted for my inexperience.

I am related to many doctors whom i have never heard speak of their lesser experienced colleagues in a disrespectful way.

My father is an investor who has many accountants, while i wouldnt have first hand experience in whether or not they insult each other, this doesnt really seem like the field that would do that though considering they dont work in proximity with each other...


I have no experience with Cops or Engineers so i cannot comment on those.


However reading your post makes me think you just named a bunch of professions without any proof. I cant help but to find humor in that you listed nurses and plumbers, i highly doubt people in these professions are degraded and insulted for inexperience. You are misunderstanding me, I do not wish to be treated as equal with a captain however i do wish to be treated with the same respect i grant others, I would never degrade a low time pilot by calling them 250 hour wonders and other names of that nature, As i stated before there are ways to address a lesser experienced pilot and that is not the way to do it. All i want is respect as a person to not be insulted.

80ktsClamp

I think you're reading into it too much. "250 hour wonders" is more calling them the anomally that they were in being able to be hired at that low time. No more, no less. Some low timers were great to fly with... some hadn't been given enough chances to find themselves or be weeded out yet.

It was what it was and hopefully will never happen again. No one should be allowed to sit in an airliner cockpit without a decent amount of command experience.

I chose to stick it out and build my time instructing, flying small time corporate, and doing aircraft sales knowing the command time would do me well compared to the others that took the short cuts. All the while learning everything I could about airliners, operating them, and the culture. I didn't stay any longer doing that than I had to until I could get hired, though (it was a more difficult time to get picked up by the regionals).

asims33

Well i do have to say that just because i have not worked 121 does not mean i dont have knowledge of the industry which is what that comment was directed at, I do have plenty of knowledge of the airline industry and how it works, my fiancee's father is a 13 year captain at US Air and rest assure i have picked his brain beyond belief, However i do not claim to have knowledge of first hand in cockpit experience in the 121 world but again that was not what that comment was directed at.

I apologize if i am coming across snide to anyone but those who have disrespected me and others like me.

I do not have much experience in crew operations, i did a CRM course and the CRJ Course at ATP that is the only experience i have with CRM however what i am talking about when i say hazing i more directed at pre-flight operations and post flight operations, i would never condone hazing during flight. Perhaps hazing isnt the right word, what i am referring to is making the FO work a bit harder at his duties.

You are correct that as a general rule the more experienced pilot makes better decisions, i was simply stating that its not like that 100% of the time so generalizing 250 hour pilots into a group of "to hot to touch know it all wonder boys" shouldnt be the norm on this site, which it is and thats what im trying to change.

I have personal experience in Marketing, Firefighting, and Flying. My family has experience in just about everything from construction to investing to medical fields to the professional sports field. While i cant 100% comment on those industries except those i have personally been involved with my comment on them was "this is the ONLY industry >i have seen< where newbies are constantly degraded and expected not to complain when they are" So i did state that this is based on personal experience and not at all a fact based on all industries. However i would like to take this chance to post a retraction on that sentence in that i generalized more than i am comfortable with in it. I do see this problem in this industry more than others but i do not wish to depict all pilots in the industry with this problem.


Your company not spending more on training is a problem that only you company can fix, its not the FO in the right seat's fault that he is not 100% prepared for the position he is in. And while i agree a few more hours of sim time wont make a huge difference it couldnt hurt. Especially if the said pilot has 250 hours...


Your last point hit the nail on the head. That is what i am trying to get across here, These pilots should focus on the flawed system rather than the low time pilots that the system pulls in. There is not 1 aspiring professional pilot that would turn down that first regional offer regardless of hours. Focus instead on those who would offer the position. I stated earlier and think we are in agreement, 250 hour guys simply arent ready for 121 ops, there is no argument for them to say they are but that in no way gives higher time pilots a right to degrade them. Thats all im fighting for here.

asims33

I wouldnt mind being called a 250 hour wonder if it wasnt always used in a degrading manor. I too am instructing as much as possible waiting on my shot to be hired. I am willing to pay my dues like the ones before me did. I just would like a level of respect that is deserved by being a professional. You dont have to respect my flying, just respect me enough not to insult.

USMCFLYR

It really bothers you that much huh??
You wanted a profession that has a similiar name?
How about EVERY 2ndLt/ENS in the entire US Military being called a 'Butter Bar' then?
Somehow - most of us get through it.

So does the term newbie or rookie get under your skin that much too?
In all the firefighter shows I've seen - it seems that 'Probie' is always used. Did they have a name for a guy in your station that was still on probation?

I think that this seems to have hit a nerve with you and you have seized the opportunity to come on a forum and engage in conversation with people who have ALL GONE through it, or MUCH worse, and come out the other side none the worse.
It is an industry term asmins. If you want to be part of the industry, maybe you need to embrace the monikers a little more and continue to work to dry the ink on your certificates.

If this still bothers you to such an extent that you are unable to cope with it, check out the article posted under the 'Callsign Controversy' thread in the military and see what type of internet reputation you are starting to build for yourself.
http://www.airlinepilotforums.com/mi...ntroversy.html

If you want to get the most out of this forum, it might be a better tactic to pick worthy battles to fight and let some aviation terms come and go as they may. This seems to be a case of making a mountain out of molehill and it seems to be taking some of the fun out participation for you in my opinion; but to each his own.

USMCFLYR

Globerunner513

'FNG'!



















might as well use that.

Zapata

Even Generals (and Captains at some airlines) have "scrambled eggs" on the bill of their hats.

asims33

I was called a probie at the fire hall

No newbie or rookie does not bother me.

Long standing traditional nick-names like in the military would not bother me, we have nicknames at the firehall, my nick-name is "Super Sims" one poor bastards nickname is "pooter" apperently he has a gas problem and on his first duty night while sneezing he had a bit of a release, whilte i didnt name him i do find the name funny and yes i refer to him as pooter, hell he refers to him self as pooter. If he were ever to complain about this name after some hazing we would stop. But this is a slight difference, if it were my nickname "250 hour wonder" i might take if differently than being generalized into a group of people that you dont want to be a part of. 250 hour wonder ist only meant to compair you to know it all low timers.

Perhaps the biggest difference in a military nick name or fire hall nick name is that the guys calling you this name would most certainly put their lives on the line to save your butt if they had to, There is a level of brotherly love in these fields and you learn to love it. Unfortunatly the pilot comunity is lacking there and this is not a nick name situation but more of a degrading term.

250 hour wonder is in its essence a disrespectful phrase meant to refer to a low time pilot who thinks he knows it all but in reality knows very little (correct me if im wrong) I am here speaking for those of us who who do not think or feel that way, i expect to pay my dues,i know im not ready for 121 ops right now but i get generalized every time i post my hours or ask a question about them. It gets old.

Thank you for your advice though, and after talking to others like yourself i have realized that this argument is somewhat of a dead horse in that some of these old guys are stuck in their ways and will not be moved on the subject while i think it is not the appropriate way to refer to a low time new 121 pilot, i doubt someone of my stature will have any roll in pruseading people to not use those phrases.

In that respect i will kindly step aside of this argument and leave with this.

Us low time guys are working hard for our dreams, Encouragement would go much further for us than reading about how you dislike the industry and how low time guys are "wet behind the ears 250 hour wonders" I would encourage any pilot who uses logic in their posts to refrane from using remarks such as those when speaking to a low time pilot, As these pilots are or soon will be co-workers and co-professional pilots, we are on the same team but just at different stages in the career. Try to show respect as you would like to be respected.


Sorry for all that i may have offended during these posts, This is somewhat of a touchy subject for me as you can tell.

USMCFLYR

Actually - you have confused callsigns/nicknames with the term that we are speaking about. Believe me - 'butter br' is not meant as a loving term of endearment by those that use it.

I used the 'Callsign Controversey' thread as an example of the damage that you could be doing to your reputation on this forum if you want to be taken seriously.
No - you don't because you aren't a guy with low time in 121 ops.
You are nothing more than a low time pilot with dreams of being in 121 ops. There is nothing wrong with that. Actually, and as many have said, you have the right attitude in that you at least seem to realize that you don't yet belong in 121 ops.

Nor should they change their ways because they are correct.

USMCFLYR