asims33

Your reply is exactly the kind of crap i expected.



These forums are absolutely for opinions, that doesnt give you guys the right to be rude all the time. I see way more opinions are rude remarks than guidance, nice try though.

Dont know what makes you think im clueless about the airlines we are only talking opinions here dont get high and mighty, its not a secretive job you have. And since i have already explained that i do not believe that just anyone can fly 121 especially at 250 hours im pretty sure we are in agreement there. Also dont know what the 1120 hour remarks has to do with anything, but i have long since given up on hoping for logical replies to this argument. It all goes back to hours and rude snide remarks. Typical.

Hazing would depend on what type of hazing, a captain being a harsh and making the FO work for that seat is perfectly fine in my opinion. The saftey hazard bit, i would agree that a low time pilot is less safe than a higher time one, however i have seen guys with very little hours be much more fluent on decisions and flying skills, lets try not to generalize so much.


Now for the biggie, It has EVERYTHING to do with respect. Want to know how i know? Cause to you guys, im a low time pilot and i feel disrespected just reading these forums. Every time i come on here its 19 of you guys against 2 or 3 low time pilots arguing until you turn blue in the face and while arguing with them you degrade every pilot that sits around 250-300 hours. It is 100% about respect. No one here can logically argue that a 250 hour guy is ready for 121, im not arguing that and any person who would is simply not thinking clearly. What i am arguing is that you guys are not little kids, you are working professionals, and this is the ONLY industry i have ever seen where newbies are constantly degraded and expected to not complain when they are. How about getting on your training dept to make stuff happen diff if fresh FOs are still clueless...?

And before anyone else chimes in please read my first post. When i say respect im not talking about flying respect, that has to be earned, we are talking about mutual PEOPLE respect, respect for the workplace and respect for your fellow pilots. Yes i respect my elders before that one comes up too...

If you think this isnt about respect then we simply cannot continue this argument since you are out of touch with what im talking about.

asims33

Awesome to hear they are moving again, but that has told me nothing about how the cockpit feels between an RJ captain and a 380 captain. Hopefully some of these guys remember their own words, thats all im saying. And the 100k pounds was more geared towards the 200

Globerunner513

I'm not going to read through the entire thread, as most of what I've read is the same back and forth for 40 pages.

funny, I just wrote a big long thing about all this back and forth and realized how pointless it all is. So to summarize:

I'm a low time pilot. 130hr Private (starting instrument this fall). Doing what I can right now to gain experience and contacts in the industry. I have no qualms with this law. Sure it'll take longer to find a 121 job, and that's a bummer. But it's not life changing. I never expected to find a job right out of school anyway.

Arguing online is like.....[insert witty comment here]

Rama

Respect works in both directions. Everyone has been at 250 hours at some point and we remember what it was like. I had over 3,000 hours before flying at a 121 carrier, yet we did not sit around and whine about the higher time guys.
The new rule will help weed out the "entitlement" generation pilots and bring up the wages at regionals and make it better for professional pilots.

asims33

I have not shown i dont respect anyone.


And i support this bill for the most part i dont want to get into the politics just read these posts before replying please.

Fishfreighter

Exactly. Work hard. Pay your dues. You'll get there. And along the way, your obvious maturity will help you learn what you need to know faster than banging your fist on the table screaming about "respect."

Remember, you can only command respect, you cannot demand it.

From your post, I think you know that already.

So true. It took me 11.5 years of active duty and 5200 military flight hours before I landed my first airline job. There are guys I fly with who went the civilian route, got hired first and hit the growth seam, upgrading in 18 months. However, they did what it took to get there. Bid undesirable bases, etc. They didn't complain and those of us junior to them who took longer to upgrade don't hold it against them.

Both unintended but VERY desirable consequences.

brianb

Whoa there tiger! I think your letting your mind run a little to hard with this. Kudos for your passion regarding aviation but i think you missed the IAP and went straight to the FAF! Maybe my viewpoint will help. I dont think most high time guys disrespect low-timers, I believe that they have been around long enough to know what an experienced pilot is. Your correct in the fact that there are some guys who cross the line but most of us dont. Its a fact that passengers want experience in the cockpit and if you were to tell them that a 300 dude was in the front, they MIGHT walk off the airplane. Would you? Would you put the most important people in your life on that airplane and hope for the best? I think your view point may change when you gain more time and experience. Meanwhile, keep at it, im sure we will see you soon in a 121 cockpit with MORE experience then you have now.

likeitis

Besides your obvious inexperience you come across naive. This is the only industry where newbies are constantly degraded and expected not to complain?

Wow, that right there shows how naive and in a bubble you have lived your life. Just off the top of my head from personal or close relationships I can think of many who are worse than pilots. Try doctors, lawyers, law enforcement, nurses, firefighters, engineers, plumbers and just about every trade out there, dentists and accountants. You ever experienced life as a first year cop or firefighter? You think a newbie engineer who is hired at someplace like AT&T or Intel is treated like an equal? Sorry bud but you are living in dreamland. I'm not saying it's right but it is what it is and there is a purpose for it. In the real world you have thick skin to survive.

bcrosier

Let's see....perhaps it's the fact that you haven't worked for one, and based on your total time I'm guessing you don't have much time in a larger/faster aircraft designed for a crew rather than a single pilot. There is a difference, and until you've done some of it in busy airspace and crappy weather it's hard to appreciate. It's not brain surgery, but there is a difference - I think a many on here take offense that you would presume to really understand what we're talking about without having real experience in it.

You of course realize that you are coming off with the same attitude here...

Here you are showing your lack of understanding of crew operations. There is NO PLACE for nonsense like this in the cockpit. Yeah it sounds tough and cool in all of the old movies and novels - but it is very detrimental to crew interaction and safety.

And I saw a dog who could play the slide whistle. The exception doesn't disprove the rule. I really doubt you've seen too many guys with limited hours with better decision making skills and abilities than higher time pilot - they may have a easier time making a decision, but that may well be because they have less information to draw on and less options to consider. As a friend of a friend put it: "I've found the more ignorant you are about something the simpler it seems."

Really? What industries do you have experience in? I'm pretty sure the medical professions are off of your list...

Yeah, they're real eager to spend more money in lieu of executive bonuses. Besides, you can't make up for experience with a couple more hours of sim time.

I have no difficulty respecting anyone who deserves respect (meaning they aren't just a crappy person - regardless of their flight time). I actually have no problem with a low time pilot in a turboprop or jet - I myself was rather low time when I started flying corporate part-time in turboprops and jets. I don't blame the pilots for accepting the positions - as you said, I'd have done so too had the opportunity presented itself. My issue isn't with the individuals, but with a system which allowed this to occur. That said, I do have an issue with those who have the attitude that they are entitled to an airline job at 300 hours (and I recognize you aren't one of them).

AtlCSIP

Suffice it to say that 1500 hours is not unreasonable, and regardless of what we might have believed before we had attained it, MOST of us agree with it completely once we have achieved it. It's the old "hindsight is 20/20" thing. Most of us have believed that we were ready for additional piloting responsibility before we actually were, but only realized it in hindsight.

Give the young guys a break. They will realize what they don't know now after they learn it later! Funny world we live in, isn't it!

Blue Skies!

ATL