1500hr / ATP for Part 121 rule passes
08-15-2010, 09:31 AM
#372
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: Furlough/Gun Driver
Posts: 437
I guess that those of us with military experience that never CFI'd should just consider ourselves unqualified then. There are many ways to become a competent and proficient pilot other than CFI time. The point is to set a standard that produces a competent and proficient pilot that is mature enough in thier profession to provide the higest level of safety when transporting passengers, or operating any large aircraft that could have disastrous results if operated incompetently in an urban area.
08-15-2010, 09:45 AM
#373
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 747 FO
Posts: 937
I gotta add my two cents... I know I may get flamed for this but need to say sumin
I am not for the rule nor against it.
I don't mean to be a hater, but they're are a lot pilots who agree with the rule, and they themselves were hired by airline when they had 250hrs. (2007
)
I believe the rule may increase pay by a smudge, but it will not produce better pilots. A Commercial pilot instrument current and ready to learn at 250 hrs is better than a 1500hr CFI who is the bomb at steep turns. I'm sorry but the captain of the Colgan airlines crash had double 1500hrs. And yes he messed up, but we are human. These mistakes will happen! Whether it be 250hr pilot, or captain with 30 plus yrs of experience ( and 250hr pilots can't even sit left seat). **** happens, we are not immune from it.
Why should people be able to dictate our job... What if I told everyone in order to be able to perform the duties of their job, they must acquire a PHD. Would this be fair??? After all they went through for training? The answer is no. A 250hr pilot is just as qualified as a 1500hr pilot sitting right seat.
It's sad to see how you pilots just stand by and let other people make up rules about commercial flying. So all you guys thinking you won, you did not. You just let politics make a thoughtless rule.
I am not for the rule nor against it.I don't mean to be a hater, but they're are a lot pilots who agree with the rule, and they themselves were hired by airline when they had 250hrs. (2007
)I believe the rule may increase pay by a smudge, but it will not produce better pilots. A Commercial pilot instrument current and ready to learn at 250 hrs is better than a 1500hr CFI who is the bomb at steep turns. I'm sorry but the captain of the Colgan airlines crash had double 1500hrs. And yes he messed up, but we are human. These mistakes will happen! Whether it be 250hr pilot, or captain with 30 plus yrs of experience ( and 250hr pilots can't even sit left seat). **** happens, we are not immune from it.
Why should people be able to dictate our job... What if I told everyone in order to be able to perform the duties of their job, they must acquire a PHD. Would this be fair??? After all they went through for training? The answer is no. A 250hr pilot is just as qualified as a 1500hr pilot sitting right seat.
It's sad to see how you pilots just stand by and let other people make up rules about commercial flying. So all you guys thinking you won, you did not. You just let politics make a thoughtless rule.
08-15-2010, 11:30 AM
#374
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Missionary
Posts: 309
For all those, "Back in the day..." posters, something to think about.
After re-reading Earnest K Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter", (if you haven't read it before flying 121, shame on you), it's a striking contrast to current air-carrier flying.
Back then, you had really green newhires flying manly aircraft (DC-2 and DC-3) that took years to master, under the tutelage of a true pilot-in-command. It was just understood that it's the Captain's responsibility to bring up the junior guys, always watching and commanding the plane and crew. It was imminently more dangerous flying, and it was never taken for granted that the guy sitting to the right was sharp...you made sure he was!
Contrast that to those who whine that flying with FNG's is like flying single-pilot, and they're not check-airmen...boo-hoo...when you put on that 4th-stripe, it's your ship! No matter how experienced or not your f/o is, it's time to put on big-boy pants and know how to command.
So 1,500 hours will make things safer...I say we double-down and make it a cool 3,000. It'll make things twice as safe. Who's with me?
After re-reading Earnest K Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter", (if you haven't read it before flying 121, shame on you), it's a striking contrast to current air-carrier flying.
Back then, you had really green newhires flying manly aircraft (DC-2 and DC-3) that took years to master, under the tutelage of a true pilot-in-command. It was just understood that it's the Captain's responsibility to bring up the junior guys, always watching and commanding the plane and crew. It was imminently more dangerous flying, and it was never taken for granted that the guy sitting to the right was sharp...you made sure he was!
Contrast that to those who whine that flying with FNG's is like flying single-pilot, and they're not check-airmen...boo-hoo...when you put on that 4th-stripe, it's your ship! No matter how experienced or not your f/o is, it's time to put on big-boy pants and know how to command.
So 1,500 hours will make things safer...I say we double-down and make it a cool 3,000. It'll make things twice as safe. Who's with me?
08-15-2010, 12:49 PM
#375
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
For all those, "Back in the day..." posters, something to think about.
After re-reading Earnest K Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter", (if you haven't read it before flying 121, shame on you), it's a striking contrast to current air-carrier flying.
Back then, you had really green newhires flying manly aircraft (DC-2 and DC-3) that took years to master, under the tutelage of a true pilot-in-command. It was just understood that it's the Captain's responsibility to bring up the junior guys, always watching and commanding the plane and crew. It was imminently more dangerous flying, and it was never taken for granted that the guy sitting to the right was sharp...you made sure he was!
Contrast that to those who whine that flying with FNG's is like flying single-pilot, and they're not check-airmen...boo-hoo...when you put on that 4th-stripe, it's your ship! No matter how experienced or not your f/o is, it's time to put on big-boy pants and know how to command.
So 1,500 hours will make things safer...I say we double-down and make it a cool 3,000. It'll make things twice as safe. Who's with me?
After re-reading Earnest K Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter", (if you haven't read it before flying 121, shame on you), it's a striking contrast to current air-carrier flying.
Back then, you had really green newhires flying manly aircraft (DC-2 and DC-3) that took years to master, under the tutelage of a true pilot-in-command. It was just understood that it's the Captain's responsibility to bring up the junior guys, always watching and commanding the plane and crew. It was imminently more dangerous flying, and it was never taken for granted that the guy sitting to the right was sharp...you made sure he was!
Contrast that to those who whine that flying with FNG's is like flying single-pilot, and they're not check-airmen...boo-hoo...when you put on that 4th-stripe, it's your ship! No matter how experienced or not your f/o is, it's time to put on big-boy pants and know how to command.
So 1,500 hours will make things safer...I say we double-down and make it a cool 3,000. It'll make things twice as safe. Who's with me?
08-15-2010, 02:38 PM
#376
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Missionary
Posts: 309
The Pilot-In-Command in those days was the one who determined if the right seater had a job at the end of the day. When you require the responsibility to train you have to give the authority to terminate training, thats what the probationary year was all about. Everything from attitude to ability was assessd on every flight. The industry also had up or out, you take the first upgrade regardless of aircraft or base and you qualify or you are on the street.
Just tired of the whiners here who think they have it hard. Seems alot of captains have forgotten that their PIC type gives them the right and responsibility to instruct in that aircraft, no CFI required. There's a reason for that. Whether your right seater is a 250hr. wonder or former Blue Angel #1, the captain has expertise that he's obliged to pass along.
08-15-2010, 02:49 PM
#377
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 1,235
All true, (probation's still with us though).
Just tired of the whiners here who think they have it hard. Seems alot of captains have forgotten that their PIC type gives them the right and responsibility to instruct in that aircraft, no CFI required. There's a reason for that. Whether your right seater is a 250hr. wonder or former Blue Angel #1, the captain has expertise that he's obliged to pass along.
Just tired of the whiners here who think they have it hard. Seems alot of captains have forgotten that their PIC type gives them the right and responsibility to instruct in that aircraft, no CFI required. There's a reason for that. Whether your right seater is a 250hr. wonder or former Blue Angel #1, the captain has expertise that he's obliged to pass along.
Before anyone gets spooled up- I have learned and benefited from highly experienced FO's and FE's.
08-15-2010, 03:12 PM
#378
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2009
Position: Missionary
Posts: 309
Can't argue with the teaching part. It just shouldn't be basic skills. Probation now is nothing like the old days, they terminated much quicker and with less company oversight. The worst thing that could happen to a pilot was to be branded a PFO , professional first officer, with years of service to the company and with up or out done on the mandatory upgrade ride.
Before anyone gets spooled up- I have learned and benefited from highly experienced FO's and FE's.
Before anyone gets spooled up- I have learned and benefited from highly experienced FO's and FE's.
The changes in the industry have been mostly positive. For all the benefits of CRM, although we don't fly by way of committee, Captains Authority has been eroded somewhat. The unfortunate result is some view the cockpit environment as compartmentalized button pushing. The responsibility and obligation to mentor is being lost, and that's a damn shame!
Okay...sorry for the thread drift!
Back to discussing the infinite wisdom that's been bestowed upon us by our Congressional leadership.
08-15-2010, 07:04 PM
#379
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: back in the right
Posts: 406
For all those, "Back in the day..." posters, something to think about.
After re-reading Earnest K Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter", (if you haven't read it before flying 121, shame on you), it's a striking contrast to current air-carrier flying.
Back then, you had really green newhires flying manly aircraft (DC-2 and DC-3) that took years to master, under the tutelage of a true pilot-in-command. It was just understood that it's the Captain's responsibility to bring up the junior guys, always watching and commanding the plane and crew. It was imminently more dangerous flying, and it was never taken for granted that the guy sitting to the right was sharp...you made sure he was!
Contrast that to those who whine that flying with FNG's is like flying single-pilot, and they're not check-airmen...boo-hoo...when you put on that 4th-stripe, it's your ship! No matter how experienced or not your f/o is, it's time to put on big-boy pants and know how to command.
So 1,500 hours will make things safer...I say we double-down and make it a cool 3,000. It'll make things twice as safe. Who's with me?
After re-reading Earnest K Gann's "Fate Is The Hunter", (if you haven't read it before flying 121, shame on you), it's a striking contrast to current air-carrier flying.
Back then, you had really green newhires flying manly aircraft (DC-2 and DC-3) that took years to master, under the tutelage of a true pilot-in-command. It was just understood that it's the Captain's responsibility to bring up the junior guys, always watching and commanding the plane and crew. It was imminently more dangerous flying, and it was never taken for granted that the guy sitting to the right was sharp...you made sure he was!
Contrast that to those who whine that flying with FNG's is like flying single-pilot, and they're not check-airmen...boo-hoo...when you put on that 4th-stripe, it's your ship! No matter how experienced or not your f/o is, it's time to put on big-boy pants and know how to command.
So 1,500 hours will make things safer...I say we double-down and make it a cool 3,000. It'll make things twice as safe. Who's with me?
08-16-2010, 12:00 AM
#380
Day puke
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Out.
Posts: 3,865
Totally agree with reading "Fate is the Hunter" before you ever touch the controls of a passenger plane. I can't believe how many guys haven't picked up a copy.
Ummm, Don't forget The High and the Mighty. In this kinder, gentler, overly PC world, we forget sometimes our coworkers need a good slap in the face.
And don't forget the line from Moby Dick, "Captains ain't above the law, Captains IS the law."
Ummm, Don't forget The High and the Mighty. In this kinder, gentler, overly PC world, we forget sometimes our coworkers need a good slap in the face.
And don't forget the line from Moby Dick, "Captains ain't above the law, Captains IS the law."
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