1500hr / ATP for Part 121 rule passes
08-15-2010, 04:25 AM
#361
Are we there yet??!!
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,010
Why should people be able to dictate our job... What if I told everyone in order to be able to perform the duties of their job, they must acquire a PHD. Would this be fair??? After all they went through for training? The answer is no. A 250hr pilot is just as qualified as a 1500hr pilot sitting right seat.
In yrs past the min (unwritten rule) to get hired at the commuters was 1200TT and to be competitive would be must higher. I remember Eagle having a 2500 TT require to be competitive in the mid 90s. Now we have seen a few yrs were the mins were dramatically lowered and all that was need was a wet commercial ticket. Those individuals were truly lucky to get hired with so low/no experience. Now that an event(s) has transpired and the mins are returning to which they were for years, those affected are screaming bloody murder. I predicted those low timers to start screaming and the whoa is me line and how unfair it is. When in actuality, those low timers should not have been hired in the first place.
We all have past the milestones of 250, 500, 1000, and 1500 hrs. Looking back on those experience levels, we can actually say how inexperienced we were and not fit to sit in the right seat of a 121 pax ops with such low time.
Don't come crying those of us that have actually had to sweep floors, wash airplane, do Jepp revisions, clean hangars, beat down doors and actually work to get our first non-cfi, banner towing, etc flying jobs when we had greater than 1500hrs.
Last edited by Thedude; 08-15-2010 at 04:35 AM.
08-15-2010, 05:03 AM
#362
Fore!
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 756 F/O
Posts: 505
Don't kid yourself, a 250 hr pilot IS NOT as qualified as a 1500 hr pilot. At 250 hrs you don't even know what you don't know. A 121 position flying people is not the place to learn the basic skill that you have not yet mastered with such low time. At least at 1500 hrs you have somewhat of a clue. Is 1500 hrs arbitrary? Sure. But we have to start somewhere with a minimum standard.
In yrs past the min (unwritten rule) to get hired at the commuters was 1200TT and to be competitive would be must higher. I remember Eagle having a 2500 TT require to be competitive in the mid 90s. Now we have seen a few yrs were the mins were dramatically lowered and all that was need was a wet commercial ticket. Those individuals were truly lucky to get hired with so low/no experience. Now that an event(s) has transpired and the mins are returning to which they were for years, those affected are screaming bloody murder. I predicted those low timers to start screaming and the whoa is me line and how unfair it is. When in actuality, those low timers should not have been hired in the first place.
We all have past the milestones of 250, 500, 1000, and 1500 hrs. Looking back on those experience levels, we can actually say how inexperienced we were and not fit to sit in the right seat of a 121 pax ops with such low time.
Don't come crying those of us that have actually had to sweep floors, wash airplane, do Jepp revisions, clean hangars, beat down doors and actually work to get our first non-cfi, banner towing, etc flying jobs when we had greater than 1500hrs.
In yrs past the min (unwritten rule) to get hired at the commuters was 1200TT and to be competitive would be must higher. I remember Eagle having a 2500 TT require to be competitive in the mid 90s. Now we have seen a few yrs were the mins were dramatically lowered and all that was need was a wet commercial ticket. Those individuals were truly lucky to get hired with so low/no experience. Now that an event(s) has transpired and the mins are returning to which they were for years, those affected are screaming bloody murder. I predicted those low timers to start screaming and the whoa is me line and how unfair it is. When in actuality, those low timers should not have been hired in the first place.
We all have past the milestones of 250, 500, 1000, and 1500 hrs. Looking back on those experience levels, we can actually say how inexperienced we were and not fit to sit in the right seat of a 121 pax ops with such low time.
Don't come crying those of us that have actually had to sweep floors, wash airplane, do Jepp revisions, clean hangars, beat down doors and actually work to get our first non-cfi, banner towing, etc flying jobs when we had greater than 1500hrs.
08-15-2010, 05:21 AM
#363
Does NOT get weekends off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: ERJ - 145
Posts: 1,631
I look back at when I had 25 hours and was sent on my first Solo-XC, I felt SOO ready. Nervous, but ready. If I could go back in time, I would lock myself up, steal my student pilot cert, and punch my CFI in the face.
Then at 40 hours when I got my PPL, I would do the same thing. You really don't know how much inexperience you have until you have more. Which is why I think it is SOO important to have a CFI. I really did not understand aviation until I got my CFI and THEN was forced to teach people.
That's why I would have loved to see a CFI be required for an ATP and like 500 hours of dual given. Although I would have also loved to see a degree requirement but hey! I'm just a CFI...
08-15-2010, 05:39 AM
#364
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: FAA 'Flight Check'
Posts: 13,839
Not me
I was learning out of KTUL/KRVS and was use to all the benefits of ATC every step along the way. I remembering going to KSWO on my first trip and feeling so nervous about not having anyone to talk to when I got there. When I told some of the salty guys around the airport what I was thinking, they just gave me that knowing grin and told me to enjoy myself and quit making mountains out of molehills. Of course I still got lost a little
Then at 40 hours when I got my PPL, I would do the same thing. You really don't know how much inexperience you have until you have more. Which is why I think it is SOO important to have a CFI. I really did not understand aviation until I got my CFI and THEN was forced to teach people.
That's why I would have loved to see a CFI be required for an ATP and like 500 hours of dual given. Although I would have also loved to see a degree requirement but hey! I'm just a CFI...
.USMCFLYR
08-15-2010, 05:50 AM
#365
Line Holder
Joined APC: Jul 2010
Posts: 72
Don't kid yourself, a 250 hr pilot IS NOT as qualified as a 1500 hr pilot. At 250 hrs you don't even know what you don't know. A 121 position flying people is not the place to learn the basic skill that you have not yet mastered with such low time. At least at 1500 hrs you have somewhat of a clue. Is 1500 hrs arbitrary? Sure. But we have to start somewhere with a minimum standard.
In yrs past the min (unwritten rule) to get hired at the commuters was 1200TT and to be competitive would be must higher. I remember Eagle having a 2500 TT require to be competitive in the mid 90s. Now we have seen a few yrs were the mins were dramatically lowered and all that was need was a wet commercial ticket. Those individuals were truly lucky to get hired with so low/no experience. Now that an event(s) has transpired and the mins are returning to which they were for years, those affected are screaming bloody murder. I predicted those low timers to start screaming and the whoa is me line and how unfair it is. When in actuality, those low timers should not have been hired in the first place.
We all have past the milestones of 250, 500, 1000, and 1500 hrs. Looking back on those experience levels, we can actually say how inexperienced we were and not fit to sit in the right seat of a 121 pax ops with such low time.
Don't come crying those of us that have actually had to sweep floors, wash airplane, do Jepp revisions, clean hangars, beat down doors and actually work to get our first non-cfi, banner towing, etc flying jobs when we had greater than 1500hrs.
In yrs past the min (unwritten rule) to get hired at the commuters was 1200TT and to be competitive would be must higher. I remember Eagle having a 2500 TT require to be competitive in the mid 90s. Now we have seen a few yrs were the mins were dramatically lowered and all that was need was a wet commercial ticket. Those individuals were truly lucky to get hired with so low/no experience. Now that an event(s) has transpired and the mins are returning to which they were for years, those affected are screaming bloody murder. I predicted those low timers to start screaming and the whoa is me line and how unfair it is. When in actuality, those low timers should not have been hired in the first place.
We all have past the milestones of 250, 500, 1000, and 1500 hrs. Looking back on those experience levels, we can actually say how inexperienced we were and not fit to sit in the right seat of a 121 pax ops with such low time.
Don't come crying those of us that have actually had to sweep floors, wash airplane, do Jepp revisions, clean hangars, beat down doors and actually work to get our first non-cfi, banner towing, etc flying jobs when we had greater than 1500hrs.
Last edited by sleepy1456; 08-15-2010 at 06:09 AM.
08-15-2010, 06:01 AM
#366
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 747 FO
Posts: 937
08-15-2010, 06:15 AM
#367
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Posts: 463
The rule is just for politics.
If the FAA and the lawmakers in Washington wanted to simply improve aviation and safety the law would simply read. To be an airline pilot and occupy ANY seat in the cockpit of a part 121 airliner you must be current and qualified and hold an ATP certificate.
If the FAA and the lawmakers in Washington wanted to simply improve aviation and safety the law would simply read. To be an airline pilot and occupy ANY seat in the cockpit of a part 121 airliner you must be current and qualified and hold an ATP certificate.
08-15-2010, 06:33 AM
#368
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: B767
Posts: 1,901
I believe the rule may increase pay by a smudge, but it will not produce better pilots. A Commercial pilot instrument current and ready to learn at 250 hrs is better than a 1500hr CFI who is the bomb at steep turns.
Towards the end of my CFI job, I was working full time as a charter pilot flying right seat in a king air. I'd fly 3-5 legs/day, every day for a week. Sometimes more than a week would pass by before I was able to do some teaching. I was very current, and used to flying a complex turbine airplane so I certainly didn't think it was going to be too challenging to jump back into a full day of instructing in a 172. Oddly enough, on my first couple of flights back as a CFI, I felt really behind! As a CFI, you are having to teach, observe, manage, fly, analyze, and think very far ahead. If you have never done it, then you have absolutely no clue and just sound plain foolish with your ignorant comments.
I'm sorry but the captain of the Colgan airlines crash had double 1500hrs. And yes he messed up, but we are human. These mistakes will happen! Whether it be 250hr pilot, or captain with 30 plus yrs of experience ( and 250hr pilots can't even sit left seat). **** happens, we are not immune from it.
It's not the fact that Renslow more than 1500 hours, it's the fact that he skipped out on the formative early years by going to an airline (Gulfstream) when he had very low time. If he had instead spent time as a PIC making decisions and learning from his mistakes, he likely would've been a much stronger pilot. His training record at Colgan, as well as his FAA busts, were indicative of some pretty major problems.
Why should people be able to dictate our job... What if I told everyone in order to be able to perform the duties of their job, they must acquire a PHD. Would this be fair??? After all they went through for training? The answer is no. A 250hr pilot is just as qualified as a 1500hr pilot sitting right seat.
As far as a 250 hour pilot being as qualified as a 1500 hour pilot, that's probably the stupidest thing I've ever read on this forum... It wasn't all that long ago that I had 1500 hours (and got my ATP shortly after). I cannot even fathom how little I knew at 250 hours compared to then! I mean it actually sort of scares me now that I was doing things back then with such little experience... Flying across the country (twice) in the middle of winter, mountain flying, getting my CFI and teaching, etc. I didn't know jack ***, but somehow I didn't kill myself and ended up learning a lot. By the time I had 1500 hours, I was FAR more prepared to be a useful crew member.
It's sad to see how you pilots just stand by and let other people make up rules about commercial flying. So all you guys thinking you won, you did not. You just let politics make a thoughtless rule.
Most of us have paid our dues and have been in your shoes, so your viewpoint it understandable... It's just very shortsighted and inexperienced. You'll know better some day, but it certainly isn't today.
08-15-2010, 07:11 AM
#369
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: SFO Guppy CA
Posts: 1,112
Don't kid yourself, a 250 hr pilot IS NOT as qualified as a 1500 hr pilot. At 250 hrs you don't even know what you don't know. A 121 position flying people is not the place to learn the basic skill that you have not yet mastered with such low time. At least at 1500 hrs you have somewhat of a clue. Is 1500 hrs arbitrary? Sure. But we have to start somewhere with a minimum standard.
In yrs past the min (unwritten rule) to get hired at the commuters was 1200TT and to be competitive would be must higher. I remember Eagle having a 2500 TT require to be competitive in the mid 90s. Now we have seen a few yrs were the mins were dramatically lowered and all that was need was a wet commercial ticket. Those individuals were truly lucky to get hired with so low/no experience. Now that an event(s) has transpired and the mins are returning to which they were for years, those affected are screaming bloody murder. I predicted those low timers to start screaming and the whoa is me line and how unfair it is. When in actuality, those low timers should not have been hired in the first place.
We all have past the milestones of 250, 500, 1000, and 1500 hrs. Looking back on those experience levels, we can actually say how inexperienced we were and not fit to sit in the right seat of a 121 pax ops with such low time.
Don't come crying those of us that have actually had to sweep floors, wash airplane, do Jepp revisions, clean hangars, beat down doors and actually work to get our first non-cfi, banner towing, etc flying jobs when we had greater than 1500hrs.
In yrs past the min (unwritten rule) to get hired at the commuters was 1200TT and to be competitive would be must higher. I remember Eagle having a 2500 TT require to be competitive in the mid 90s. Now we have seen a few yrs were the mins were dramatically lowered and all that was need was a wet commercial ticket. Those individuals were truly lucky to get hired with so low/no experience. Now that an event(s) has transpired and the mins are returning to which they were for years, those affected are screaming bloody murder. I predicted those low timers to start screaming and the whoa is me line and how unfair it is. When in actuality, those low timers should not have been hired in the first place.
We all have past the milestones of 250, 500, 1000, and 1500 hrs. Looking back on those experience levels, we can actually say how inexperienced we were and not fit to sit in the right seat of a 121 pax ops with such low time.
Don't come crying those of us that have actually had to sweep floors, wash airplane, do Jepp revisions, clean hangars, beat down doors and actually work to get our first non-cfi, banner towing, etc flying jobs when we had greater than 1500hrs.
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