1500hr / ATP for Part 121 rule passes
07-31-2010, 10:04 AM
#251
Eats shoots and leaves...
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Didactic Synthetic Aviation Experience Provider
Posts: 849
Great - let's copy the rest of the world's screwed up approach to aviation.
We're already stuck with TAF and METAR codes in French when those idiots don't even have a distinct word for mist. Why couldn't we pick a language that doesn't have a word for clouds or rain. Morons.
But don't get me started...
We're already stuck with TAF and METAR codes in French when those idiots don't even have a distinct word for mist. Why couldn't we pick a language that doesn't have a word for clouds or rain. Morons.
But don't get me started...
07-31-2010, 10:15 AM
#252
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: EMB-170 FO
Posts: 383
I never got the whole "waiting for the frozen ATP to defrost" idea... you either have an ATP or you don't!
What ^^^ said! 
Great - let's copy the rest of the world's screwed up approach to aviation.
We're already stuck with TAF and METAR codes in French when those idiots don't even have a distinct word for mist. Why couldn't we pick a language that doesn't have a word for clouds or rain. Morons.
But don't get me started...
We're already stuck with TAF and METAR codes in French when those idiots don't even have a distinct word for mist. Why couldn't we pick a language that doesn't have a word for clouds or rain. Morons.
But don't get me started...
07-31-2010, 10:29 AM
#254
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,903
I don't believe there is actually a "Frozen ATP". It is an industry term that simply describes someone who has taken the exams, but does not have the required experience. I don't think it's really a ticket or rating, at least from what I've read in the JAR's (which makes the FARs look easy to read).
In any case, I don't see where anyone having a "less than 1,500 hour ATP" will avoid some kind of restriction. It will most certainly have a "Does not meet ICAO Requirements", and will probably have something along the lines of "Not valid for operations requiring an ATP for PIC".
Nu
In any case, I don't see where anyone having a "less than 1,500 hour ATP" will avoid some kind of restriction. It will most certainly have a "Does not meet ICAO Requirements", and will probably have something along the lines of "Not valid for operations requiring an ATP for PIC".
Nu
07-31-2010, 11:40 AM
#255
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: B-737
Posts: 392
Thanks Whacker--I've been looking for it everywhere. Seems to me that part of the bill which specifies an ATP--specifically flights hours, is somewhat vague. Meaning that if the "Administrator" chooses to substitute "specific academic training courses", he (or she) could quite possible reduce the flight hour requirement back to 250 hours for anybody with a degree in aviation in the final rule making.
(c) Flight Hours-
(1) NUMBERS OF FLIGHT HOURS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall be at least 1,500 flight hours.
(2) FLIGHT HOURS IN DIFFICULT OPERATIONAL CONDITIONS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall include sufficient flight hours, as determined by the Administrator, in difficult operational conditions that may be encountered by an air carrier to enable a pilot to operate safely in such conditions.
(d) Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement.
(e) Recommendations of Expert Panel- In conducting the rulemaking proceeding under this section, the Administrator shall review and consider the assessment and recommendations of the expert panel to review part 121 and part 135 training hours established by section 209(b) of this Act.
(f) Deadline- Not later than 36 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall issue a final rule under subsection (a).
(c) Flight Hours-
(1) NUMBERS OF FLIGHT HOURS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall be at least 1,500 flight hours.
(2) FLIGHT HOURS IN DIFFICULT OPERATIONAL CONDITIONS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall include sufficient flight hours, as determined by the Administrator, in difficult operational conditions that may be encountered by an air carrier to enable a pilot to operate safely in such conditions.
(d) Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement.
(e) Recommendations of Expert Panel- In conducting the rulemaking proceeding under this section, the Administrator shall review and consider the assessment and recommendations of the expert panel to review part 121 and part 135 training hours established by section 209(b) of this Act.
(f) Deadline- Not later than 36 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall issue a final rule under subsection (a).
07-31-2010, 01:22 PM
#256
pants on the ground
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: back seat
Posts: 1,359
Thanks Whacker--I've been looking for it everywhere. Seems to me that part of the bill which specifies an ATP--specifically flights hours, is somewhat vague. Meaning that if the "Administrator" chooses to substitute "specific academic training courses", he (or she) could quite possible reduce the flight hour requirement back to 250 hours for anybody with a degree in aviation in the final rule making.
(c) Flight Hours-
(1) NUMBERS OF FLIGHT HOURS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall be at least 1,500 flight hours.
(2) FLIGHT HOURS IN DIFFICULT OPERATIONAL CONDITIONS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall include sufficient flight hours, as determined by the Administrator, in difficult operational conditions that may be encountered by an air carrier to enable a pilot to operate safely in such conditions.
(d) Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement.
(e) Recommendations of Expert Panel- In conducting the rulemaking proceeding under this section, the Administrator shall review and consider the assessment and recommendations of the expert panel to review part 121 and part 135 training hours established by section 209(b) of this Act.
(f) Deadline- Not later than 36 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall issue a final rule under subsection (a).
(c) Flight Hours-
(1) NUMBERS OF FLIGHT HOURS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall be at least 1,500 flight hours.
(2) FLIGHT HOURS IN DIFFICULT OPERATIONAL CONDITIONS- The total flight hours required by the Administrator under subsection (b)(1) shall include sufficient flight hours, as determined by the Administrator, in difficult operational conditions that may be encountered by an air carrier to enable a pilot to operate safely in such conditions.
(d) Credit Toward Flight Hours- The Administrator may allow specific academic training courses, beyond those required under subsection (b)(2), to be credited toward the total flight hours required under subsection (c). The Administrator may allow such credit based on a determination by the Administrator that allowing a pilot to take specific academic training courses will enhance safety more than requiring the pilot to fully comply with the flight hours requirement.
(e) Recommendations of Expert Panel- In conducting the rulemaking proceeding under this section, the Administrator shall review and consider the assessment and recommendations of the expert panel to review part 121 and part 135 training hours established by section 209(b) of this Act.
(f) Deadline- Not later than 36 months after the date of enactment of this Act, the Administrator shall issue a final rule under subsection (a).
So section 'D' is where all the pilot mills will have their loop hole to jump through. Anyone know how much the hours can be reduced?
07-31-2010, 02:53 PM
#257
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: Self employed
Posts: 3,048
The puppy mills will get to advertise, "hurry up and get your 250 hour pilot job now, before the rules change in 36 months".
Then, they can charge more for all the additional training required, and additional hours. Win, win.
Also, the final rule in 36 months could say, "effective 1 Jan 20xx...." 2015, 2020 ?
Last edited by TonyWilliams; 07-31-2010 at 03:27 PM.
07-31-2010, 03:12 PM
#258
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2006
Position: B-737
Posts: 392
Congress passes useless legislation all the time to make it look like they being tough and proactive, but it's often rife with loopholes--as this bill seems to be.
07-31-2010, 03:32 PM
#259
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2007
Position: CFI
Posts: 416
Given all of the heat placed by the Congress on the FAA, I can't imagine the FAA lowering the ATP minimum for pilot mills to 250. I could see something in the neighborhood of 1000 or 1200, but that would be it.
I earned my private, instrument, and commercial at a local 141 school. Considering it was FAA supervised, I wonder if that might allow for a lower time. It's really not a big deal for me as I have 1300 hours, but I think it would be somewhat unfair if a person like me earned a college degree in finance and then went to a 141 school, but couldn't get a lower ATP minimum as someone who went to a college program could.
Life's not fair, I know and I'm not *****ing. I'm just wondering if all 141 schools will get the benefit of the doubt, or just universities.
I earned my private, instrument, and commercial at a local 141 school. Considering it was FAA supervised, I wonder if that might allow for a lower time. It's really not a big deal for me as I have 1300 hours, but I think it would be somewhat unfair if a person like me earned a college degree in finance and then went to a 141 school, but couldn't get a lower ATP minimum as someone who went to a college program could.
Life's not fair, I know and I'm not *****ing. I'm just wondering if all 141 schools will get the benefit of the doubt, or just universities.
07-31-2010, 03:42 PM
#260
pants on the ground
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: back seat
Posts: 1,359
The puppy mills will get to advertise, "hurry up and get your 250 hour pilot job now, before the rules change in 36 months".
Then, they can charge more for all the additional training required, and additional hours. Win, win.
Also, the final rule in 36 months could say, "effective 1 Jan 20xx...." 2015, 2020 ?
Then, they can charge more for all the additional training required, and additional hours. Win, win.
Also, the final rule in 36 months could say, "effective 1 Jan 20xx...." 2015, 2020 ?
That's kind of my point--it doesn't say. It leaves it up the the Administrator. Since the FAA is against this legislation to begin with, it's my guess they will try to reduce it by as much as possible. Could they reduce it by the entire difference between 250 and 1500? Why not? There's nothing specific that says otherwise.
Congress passes useless legislation all the time to make it look like they being tough and proactive, but it's often rife with loopholes--as this bill seems to be.
Congress passes useless legislation all the time to make it look like they being tough and proactive, but it's often rife with loopholes--as this bill seems to be.
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