Delta Sells Compass and Mesaba
07-06-2010, 09:52 PM
#291
New Hire
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Posts: 5
NW and DL both had there thumb on our hiring practices. Now that we are no longer a WO I don't know why DL would want anything to do with the flow. I can't help but think that this is about something bigger than the flow though... Time will tell
07-06-2010, 10:32 PM
#292
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: MD-88 F/O
Posts: 123
Furloughs need 18 months (or so) to be a profitable return - You need to street the pilots for 18 months to get the benefit of the furlough. I don't think honestly in this "crisis" there was a period where you couldn't find enough proof that the turn-around was going to take longer that that! The fact that they would've needed to furlough starting around the $140 bucks/barrel time and hadn't and here we are two years later hiring says they did a good job speculating that furloughs weren't a necessary evil.
But to say they didn't furlough was because of the Compass flow? I disagree. If they needed to cut the cost and it was dire, flow or not, they'll street the pilots and figure it out later! Besides, I don't know many that would've taken anything less than a Capt. position at Compass anyway as a furloughee.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, getting back on the highway...
07-07-2010, 12:45 AM
#293
Banned
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Narrow/Left Wide/Right
Posts: 3,655
Seriously!? That's comparing apples to oranges. In the deepest month of this "crisis" there were over 8 million game consoles sold in the US alone. No one is waiting in line for cheese or bread like they were in the 30's! To compare them is ridiculous!
Furloughs need 18 months (or so) to be a profitable return - You need to street the pilots for 18 months to get the benefit of the furlough. I don't think honestly in this "crisis" there was a period where you couldn't find enough proof that the turn-around was going to take longer that that! The fact that they would've needed to furlough starting around the $140 bucks/barrel time and hadn't and here we are two years later hiring says they did a good job speculating that furloughs weren't a necessary evil.
But to say they didn't furlough was because of the Compass flow? I disagree. If they needed to cut the cost and it was dire, flow or not, they'll street the pilots and figure it out later! Besides, I don't know many that would've taken anything less than a Capt. position at Compass anyway as a furloughee.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, getting back on the highway...
Furloughs need 18 months (or so) to be a profitable return - You need to street the pilots for 18 months to get the benefit of the furlough. I don't think honestly in this "crisis" there was a period where you couldn't find enough proof that the turn-around was going to take longer that that! The fact that they would've needed to furlough starting around the $140 bucks/barrel time and hadn't and here we are two years later hiring says they did a good job speculating that furloughs weren't a necessary evil.
But to say they didn't furlough was because of the Compass flow? I disagree. If they needed to cut the cost and it was dire, flow or not, they'll street the pilots and figure it out later! Besides, I don't know many that would've taken anything less than a Capt. position at Compass anyway as a furloughee.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, getting back on the highway...
07-07-2010, 04:48 AM
#294
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
Essentially we have all been employees of Delta and Delta has access to more information about us than they would any new hire off the street. Now that DL is talking hiring very few people are thinking furlough if DL is able to cancel the flow we may all soon find out just how much job protection Compass did provide for mainline
07-07-2010, 04:51 AM
#295
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
I think too many people think that Delta's concern is the flow up...Those of us at compass were originally hired by meeting NW's hiring minimums doing the NW interview and sim profile along with completing the NW medical. Recently our hiring practices have been changed and a consultant company has been hired to revamp the process to model DL's hiring practices. Essentially we have all been employees of Delta and Delta has access to more information about us than they would any new hire off the street. Now that DL is talking hiring very few people are thinking furlough if DL is able to cancel the flow we may all soon find out just how much job protection Compass did provide for mainline
Last edited by johnso29; 07-07-2010 at 05:19 AM.
07-07-2010, 04:58 AM
#296
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
Seriously!? That's comparing apples to oranges. In the deepest month of this "crisis" there were over 8 million game consoles sold in the US alone. No one is waiting in line for cheese or bread like they were in the 30's! To compare them is ridiculous!
Furloughs need 18 months (or so) to be a profitable return - You need to street the pilots for 18 months to get the benefit of the furlough. I don't think honestly in this "crisis" there was a period where you couldn't find enough proof that the turn-around was going to take longer that that! The fact that they would've needed to furlough starting around the $140 bucks/barrel time and hadn't and here we are two years later hiring says they did a good job speculating that furloughs weren't a necessary evil.
But to say they didn't furlough was because of the Compass flow? I disagree. If they needed to cut the cost and it was dire, flow or not, they'll street the pilots and figure it out later! Besides, I don't know many that would've taken anything less than a Capt. position at Compass anyway as a furloughee.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, getting back on the highway...
Furloughs need 18 months (or so) to be a profitable return - You need to street the pilots for 18 months to get the benefit of the furlough. I don't think honestly in this "crisis" there was a period where you couldn't find enough proof that the turn-around was going to take longer that that! The fact that they would've needed to furlough starting around the $140 bucks/barrel time and hadn't and here we are two years later hiring says they did a good job speculating that furloughs weren't a necessary evil.
But to say they didn't furlough was because of the Compass flow? I disagree. If they needed to cut the cost and it was dire, flow or not, they'll street the pilots and figure it out later! Besides, I don't know many that would've taken anything less than a Capt. position at Compass anyway as a furloughee.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, getting back on the highway...
Plus ROI with the flow down was 22 months. It's less without the flow down, & depends on the #, but it makes a difference. Read the contract. Costs beyond the companies control cannot be fuel costs, weather. In other words, those don't count as force majuere.
07-07-2010, 07:00 AM
#297
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 410
Brakechatter,
I agree with what you wrote. The flow down was, and is, an important part of our job protection provisions. In fact, your quote is well worth repeating:You and I both witnessed the crime from different perspectives. You were in the barn and I was in the tree outside (with a less obstructed view). The farmer made a deal to sell the farm, but he couldn't tell the kids of his plans to squander their inheritance. He decided to tell everyone the sacred cows were stolen, then he'd claim the insurance money and retire. He opened the door and fired the shots, then fingered the straw man. When the straw man saw the sacred cows stampeding off the farm he figured the best way to save the day was to build a big fence that would protect them. To do so the straw man needed a hammer and some nails. Lumber from the open barn door was as good as any other lumber. I cautioned the straw man that there were flaws with his hammer, materials cost too much and that the farmer was a dangerous adversary. In the end, he lacked the workforce and materials to get the job done before the cows were taken by enterprising farmers from Utah and Indiana. The Straw Man settled for the ability to watch the farmhouse from a nearby hill. From this vantage point he calls the cops any time he sees a door on the barn starting to open, or close. The farmer resents the surveillance with a passion and ended up with a lot less retirement than what he had hoped his plan would produce. The kids work the farm now, making a lot less than the farmer did. The old homestead is still beautiful and green. The problem is, the farm just isn't as big as it once was and those cows that got lose are now competition for the homestead's production.
The neighboring farm to the Southwest avoided all the shenanigans and just stuck to farming. Their farm lacks all the fancy divisions and all the managers to figure it all out, but the barn is in pretty good shape. It has all of its doors and many fewer bullet holes. The just cows do what cows do ... eat grass, fart and mooooo.
Just because I understand and try to explain something does not mean I support or am trying to defend it.
As for my December 2010 forecast, I hope that I'm wrong. If the market speculation regarding our profitability is anything more than a pump and dump, I'll be eating that prediction with a smile.
I agree with what you wrote. The flow down was, and is, an important part of our job protection provisions. In fact, your quote is well worth repeating:You and I both witnessed the crime from different perspectives. You were in the barn and I was in the tree outside (with a less obstructed view). The farmer made a deal to sell the farm, but he couldn't tell the kids of his plans to squander their inheritance. He decided to tell everyone the sacred cows were stolen, then he'd claim the insurance money and retire. He opened the door and fired the shots, then fingered the straw man. When the straw man saw the sacred cows stampeding off the farm he figured the best way to save the day was to build a big fence that would protect them. To do so the straw man needed a hammer and some nails. Lumber from the open barn door was as good as any other lumber. I cautioned the straw man that there were flaws with his hammer, materials cost too much and that the farmer was a dangerous adversary. In the end, he lacked the workforce and materials to get the job done before the cows were taken by enterprising farmers from Utah and Indiana. The Straw Man settled for the ability to watch the farmhouse from a nearby hill. From this vantage point he calls the cops any time he sees a door on the barn starting to open, or close. The farmer resents the surveillance with a passion and ended up with a lot less retirement than what he had hoped his plan would produce. The kids work the farm now, making a lot less than the farmer did. The old homestead is still beautiful and green. The problem is, the farm just isn't as big as it once was and those cows that got lose are now competition for the homestead's production.
The neighboring farm to the Southwest avoided all the shenanigans and just stuck to farming. Their farm lacks all the fancy divisions and all the managers to figure it all out, but the barn is in pretty good shape. It has all of its doors and many fewer bullet holes. The just cows do what cows do ... eat grass, fart and mooooo.
Just because I understand and try to explain something does not mean I support or am trying to defend it.
As for my December 2010 forecast, I hope that I'm wrong. If the market speculation regarding our profitability is anything more than a pump and dump, I'll be eating that prediction with a smile.
Suffice to say, that I think you are wasting your intelligence on unsubstantiated pessimism. We will never agree on how things went down, that we can practically reign in all of our flying, that the rjdc wasn't the single largest bunch of regional scumbags ever, and a myriad of other things.
I'm glad you made the jump, and I think that it was a good call on your part. One last point, I don't look at people below me on the list as furlough protection. The last guy deserves as much job security as the first guy.
07-07-2010, 07:09 AM
#298
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 410
Seriously!? That's comparing apples to oranges. In the deepest month of this "crisis" there were over 8 million game consoles sold in the US alone. No one is waiting in line for cheese or bread like they were in the 30's! To compare them is ridiculous!
Furloughs need 18 months (or so) to be a profitable return - You need to street the pilots for 18 months to get the benefit of the furlough. I don't think honestly in this "crisis" there was a period where you couldn't find enough proof that the turn-around was going to take longer that that! The fact that they would've needed to furlough starting around the $140 bucks/barrel time and hadn't and here we are two years later hiring says they did a good job speculating that furloughs weren't a necessary evil.
But to say they didn't furlough was because of the Compass flow? I disagree. If they needed to cut the cost and it was dire, flow or not, they'll street the pilots and figure it out later! Besides, I don't know many that would've taken anything less than a Capt. position at Compass anyway as a furloughee.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, getting back on the highway...
Furloughs need 18 months (or so) to be a profitable return - You need to street the pilots for 18 months to get the benefit of the furlough. I don't think honestly in this "crisis" there was a period where you couldn't find enough proof that the turn-around was going to take longer that that! The fact that they would've needed to furlough starting around the $140 bucks/barrel time and hadn't and here we are two years later hiring says they did a good job speculating that furloughs weren't a necessary evil.
But to say they didn't furlough was because of the Compass flow? I disagree. If they needed to cut the cost and it was dire, flow or not, they'll street the pilots and figure it out later! Besides, I don't know many that would've taken anything less than a Capt. position at Compass anyway as a furloughee.
Anyway, sorry for the tangent, getting back on the highway...
You don't understand the economics well enough to be commenting. I didn't compare the Great Depression to the last 2 years. I said that the last two years was the worst economic regression SINCE the Great Depression.
There were many reasons that the company didn't furlough. I never said that the reason was the flow. There were multiple reason--the flow being one of them, and a significant one at that. The ROI on furlough is more than 18 months, and some of that is because of the flow agreement.
Speaking of the flow, this statement reflects you lack of understanding as to how the flow works:
Besides, I don't know many that would've taken anything less than a Capt. position at Compass anyway as a furloughee.
07-07-2010, 07:26 AM
#299
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,049
It is the same forecast.
I readily admit it appears unlikely (and I hope it is). You have to remember that what we read in the news about Delta is usually our performance and trends which are extrapolated from last quarter, which means at best, that news is three to four months behind the actual market and a half year away from the data needed to make staffing prognostications. Based on what I see in the US market the reduction in government subsidies and supports, as well as flat line growth and Delta's long term trends, we are out of the woods as Delta pilots.
Brake Chatter was correct that I made that forecast and I'm just being honest and conceding he is correct.
07-07-2010, 07:29 AM
#300
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Brakechatter,
I agree with what you wrote. The flow down was, and is, an important part of our job protection provisions. In fact, your quote is well worth repeating:You and I both witnessed the crime from different perspectives. You were in the barn and I was in the tree outside (with a less obstructed view). The farmer made a deal to sell the farm, but he couldn't tell the kids of his plans to squander their inheritance. He decided to tell everyone the sacred cows were stolen, then he'd claim the insurance money and retire. He opened the door and fired the shots, then fingered the straw man. When the straw man saw the sacred cows stampeding off the farm he figured the best way to save the day was to build a big fence that would protect them. To do so the straw man needed a hammer and some nails. Lumber from the open barn door was as good as any other lumber. I cautioned the straw man that there were flaws with his hammer, materials cost too much and that the farmer was a dangerous adversary. In the end, he lacked the workforce and materials to get the job done before the cows were taken by enterprising farmers from Utah and Indiana. The Straw Man settled for the ability to watch the farmhouse from a nearby hill. From this vantage point he calls the cops any time he sees a door on the barn starting to open, or close. The farmer resents the surveillance with a passion and ended up with a lot less retirement than what he had hoped his plan would produce. The kids work the farm now, making a lot less than the farmer did. The old homestead is still beautiful and green. The problem is, the farm just isn't as big as it once was and those cows that got lose are now competition for the homestead's production.
The neighboring farm to the Southwest avoided all the shenanigans and just stuck to farming. Their farm lacks all the fancy divisions and all the managers to figure it all out, but the barn is in pretty good shape. It has all of its doors and many fewer bullet holes. The just cows do what cows do ... eat grass, fart and mooooo.
Just because I understand and try to explain something does not mean I support or am trying to defend it.
As for my December 2010 forecast, I hope that I'm wrong. If the market speculation regarding our profitability is anything more than a pump and dump, I'll be eating that prediction with a smile.
I agree with what you wrote. The flow down was, and is, an important part of our job protection provisions. In fact, your quote is well worth repeating:You and I both witnessed the crime from different perspectives. You were in the barn and I was in the tree outside (with a less obstructed view). The farmer made a deal to sell the farm, but he couldn't tell the kids of his plans to squander their inheritance. He decided to tell everyone the sacred cows were stolen, then he'd claim the insurance money and retire. He opened the door and fired the shots, then fingered the straw man. When the straw man saw the sacred cows stampeding off the farm he figured the best way to save the day was to build a big fence that would protect them. To do so the straw man needed a hammer and some nails. Lumber from the open barn door was as good as any other lumber. I cautioned the straw man that there were flaws with his hammer, materials cost too much and that the farmer was a dangerous adversary. In the end, he lacked the workforce and materials to get the job done before the cows were taken by enterprising farmers from Utah and Indiana. The Straw Man settled for the ability to watch the farmhouse from a nearby hill. From this vantage point he calls the cops any time he sees a door on the barn starting to open, or close. The farmer resents the surveillance with a passion and ended up with a lot less retirement than what he had hoped his plan would produce. The kids work the farm now, making a lot less than the farmer did. The old homestead is still beautiful and green. The problem is, the farm just isn't as big as it once was and those cows that got lose are now competition for the homestead's production.
The neighboring farm to the Southwest avoided all the shenanigans and just stuck to farming. Their farm lacks all the fancy divisions and all the managers to figure it all out, but the barn is in pretty good shape. It has all of its doors and many fewer bullet holes. The just cows do what cows do ... eat grass, fart and mooooo.
Just because I understand and try to explain something does not mean I support or am trying to defend it.
As for my December 2010 forecast, I hope that I'm wrong. If the market speculation regarding our profitability is anything more than a pump and dump, I'll be eating that prediction with a smile.
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