Delta Sells Compass and Mesaba
07-02-2010, 10:46 AM
#131
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
Thanks for the warning! I've already called my reps to encourage them to support Moak's efforts to protect the flow thru in light of recent events.
How do you figure this is management's problem? The flow thru was OUR creation, and it is in OUR interests to preserve it. If you think Moak should turn his back on Compass and Mesaba when we are a party to the flow agreements, then say it.
I think I'll call my reps again, and remind them to ignore pilots who believe every negotiation results in concessions.
How do you figure this is management's problem? The flow thru was OUR creation, and it is in OUR interests to preserve it. If you think Moak should turn his back on Compass and Mesaba when we are a party to the flow agreements, then say it.
I think I'll call my reps again, and remind them to ignore pilots who believe every negotiation results in concessions.
I think Moak should turn his back on Compass and Mesaba. How's that?
He is the Delta MEC Chairman. Not Compass or Mesaba.
Dump those 76 seat RJs right now. Or keep 'em and give me a 25% raise.
I don't know how you figure that flow through was our creation or its in our interest to keep it. Those jets and that flow were crammed down the NWA pilot's throats in bankruptcy. Now we have a rare chance to get some scope back. The Delta pilots have been stressing the importance of scope and stopping the outsourcing for years.
The recently elected ATL reps got their jobs because of the emphasis they placed on scope.
Now they get to act on their campaign rhetoric.
Last edited by Check Essential; 07-02-2010 at 11:04 AM.
07-02-2010, 10:58 AM
#132
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2010
Position: Boeing Boss
Posts: 335
I appreciate your candor. I don't think there's a 25% raise in play based on the value of jets that *might* be skimmed if the flow thru dies.
I think there is more long term value to us a mainline pilot group by keeping the Compass and Mesaba pilots connected to us by a flow.
The TERMS of the flow were not all our doing, but since I know we had been trying to get a flow thru at NW for many years, I know it was our creation.
I think there is more long term value to us a mainline pilot group by keeping the Compass and Mesaba pilots connected to us by a flow.
The TERMS of the flow were not all our doing, but since I know we had been trying to get a flow thru at NW for many years, I know it was our creation.
07-02-2010, 11:04 AM
#133
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 396
When was CPZ created? Why was CPZ created? Why was a flow-thru added and who added it?
Are the pilots at Delta divided with regard to the flow thru? If they are divided, does whether they were from NWA or the original Delta determine their outlook on the flow agreement?
Are the pilots at Delta divided with regard to the flow thru? If they are divided, does whether they were from NWA or the original Delta determine their outlook on the flow agreement?
07-02-2010, 11:04 AM
#134
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
what if delta cancels the flow and drops the number of 76 seaters to 85 by converting the other 76 seaters to 70 seaters (adding more 1st class seats like they're currently doing to the 70 seaters dropping to 66 seats).
IF they did that they could cx the flow and meet the contract. They've been saying they wanted more 1st class seats. that could be their plan in this. we'll see
IF they did that they could cx the flow and meet the contract. They've been saying they wanted more 1st class seats. that could be their plan in this. we'll see
07-02-2010, 11:10 AM
#135
Works Every Weekend
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 737 ATL
Posts: 3,506
When was CPZ created? Why was CPZ created? Why was a flow-thru added and who added it?
Are the pilots at Delta divided with regard to the flow thru? If they are divided, does whether they were from NWA or the original Delta determine their outlook on the flow agreement?
Are the pilots at Delta divided with regard to the flow thru? If they are divided, does whether they were from NWA or the original Delta determine their outlook on the flow agreement?
Lots of history in the answer to your question.
Short version -- it was done in the NWA bankruptcy under the threat of 1113 contract rejection.
Management was demanding more outsourced flying and the pilots were able to get some flow-through language in return. Management held all the cards at the time because they had a federal BK judge to help.
This is not a North/South thing at all. We all live under the same scope clause now.
07-02-2010, 11:12 AM
#136
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: B737 CA
Posts: 1,518
The Definitive Answer
OK guys, I finally dug up NWA LOA 2006-14 to see exactly what it says about termination of flow after selling Compass. Here's the language:
Therefore, the language in the CBA that states that the 71-76 seater cap reverts downward if the "flow provisions of LOA 2006-10 and 2006-14 cease to be available" appears to be superseded by the language within the LOA itself. Compass can cancel the flow up, only the flow down has to remain in place. 
LETTER 2006-14
(76-Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through Agreement)
LETTER OF AGREEMENT
between
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.
and
THE AIR LINE PILOTS
in the service of
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.
as represented by
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
This Letter of Agreement is made and entered into in accordance with the provisions of
Title II of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between Northwest Airlines, Inc.,
(hereinafter referred to as the “Company”) and the Air Line Pilots in the service of Northwest
Airlines, Inc. as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (hereinafter
referred to as “ALPA”).
WHEREAS, the Company and ALPA have agreed to certain modifications of the
NWA/ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement (the “Pilots Agreement”) in furtherance of the
Company’s effort to improve liquidity and profitability and successfully restructure its capital
structure and operations and reorganize through the Chapter 11 bankruptcy process; and
WHEREAS, the Modifications embodied in this Letter of Agreement pertain to the
agreement of the parties to permit the Company to establish a Feeder Carrier Affiliate pursuant
to the provisions of Section 1 B.7.c.(7)(d) of the ALPA Restructuring Agreement (hereinafter
“Feeder Carrier Affiliate ”), and
WHEREAS, the parties have agreed to a 76 Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through term
sheet and are desirous of reflecting the terms thereof in this Letter of Agreement.
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the undersigned parties do hereby agree as
follows:
A. General.
1. This Letter of Agreement governs employment opportunities at the company and
at the Feeder Carrier Affiliate for all NWA pilots with a system seniority number
together with future pilots employed by the Company and pilots employed by the
Feeder Carrier Affiliate. In the event of a sale of Feeder Carrier Affiliate such that
it is no longer an affiliate of NWA, the flow up rights of Feeder Carrier Affiliate
new hire pilots (Sections D and H below) can be terminated by the Feeder Carrier
without impacting the Company’s upper cap in Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. upper cap of
90) The ramifications of a stoppage of flow down rights of NWA furloughees
(both current and future laid off NWA pilots, including new hire NWA pilots
from Feeder Carrier Affiliate and elsewhere) in this circumstance are addressed in
Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. reduced to lower cap of 55).
(snip)
(76-Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through Agreement)
LETTER OF AGREEMENT
between
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.
and
THE AIR LINE PILOTS
in the service of
NORTHWEST AIRLINES, INC.
as represented by
AIR LINE PILOTS ASSOCIATION, INTERNATIONAL
This Letter of Agreement is made and entered into in accordance with the provisions of
Title II of the Railway Labor Act, as amended, by and between Northwest Airlines, Inc.,
(hereinafter referred to as the “Company”) and the Air Line Pilots in the service of Northwest
Airlines, Inc. as represented by the Air Line Pilots Association, International (hereinafter
referred to as “ALPA”).
WHEREAS, the Company and ALPA have agreed to certain modifications of the
NWA/ALPA Collective Bargaining Agreement (the “Pilots Agreement”) in furtherance of the
Company’s effort to improve liquidity and profitability and successfully restructure its capital
structure and operations and reorganize through the Chapter 11 bankruptcy process; and
WHEREAS, the Modifications embodied in this Letter of Agreement pertain to the
agreement of the parties to permit the Company to establish a Feeder Carrier Affiliate pursuant
to the provisions of Section 1 B.7.c.(7)(d) of the ALPA Restructuring Agreement (hereinafter
“Feeder Carrier Affiliate ”), and
WHEREAS, the parties have agreed to a 76 Seat Small Regional Jet Flow Through term
sheet and are desirous of reflecting the terms thereof in this Letter of Agreement.
NOW, THEREFORE, BE IT RESOLVED, the undersigned parties do hereby agree as
follows:
A. General.
1. This Letter of Agreement governs employment opportunities at the company and
at the Feeder Carrier Affiliate for all NWA pilots with a system seniority number
together with future pilots employed by the Company and pilots employed by the
Feeder Carrier Affiliate. In the event of a sale of Feeder Carrier Affiliate such that
it is no longer an affiliate of NWA, the flow up rights of Feeder Carrier Affiliate
new hire pilots (Sections D and H below) can be terminated by the Feeder Carrier
without impacting the Company’s upper cap in Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. upper cap of
90) The ramifications of a stoppage of flow down rights of NWA furloughees
(both current and future laid off NWA pilots, including new hire NWA pilots
from Feeder Carrier Affiliate and elsewhere) in this circumstance are addressed in
Section 1.B.7.c. (e.g. reduced to lower cap of 55).
(snip)
07-02-2010, 11:42 AM
#137
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
One of the reasons I voted no to the BK cram-down contract, was I said no NEWCO (Compass) and I ment it (also the duration of the contract).
I see, and understand, everything Splash says (do you live in FSD?). However, maybe I'm not thinking long range enough because I see this as a cake and eat it too opportunity. We let the flows go away and get a scope bump AND we hire all the Compass and Mesaba guys we can....probably higher than the flow numbers anyway. I understand we give up the flow down, but if the DCIs continue to shrink, it could be moot as we need more and more mainline guys.
I'm sure I'm not seeing the knight moving into position to take my queen (my biggest chess weakness) so please fire away.
Ferd
I see, and understand, everything Splash says (do you live in FSD?). However, maybe I'm not thinking long range enough because I see this as a cake and eat it too opportunity. We let the flows go away and get a scope bump AND we hire all the Compass and Mesaba guys we can....probably higher than the flow numbers anyway. I understand we give up the flow down, but if the DCIs continue to shrink, it could be moot as we need more and more mainline guys.
I'm sure I'm not seeing the knight moving into position to take my queen (my biggest chess weakness) so please fire away.
Ferd
07-02-2010, 11:45 AM
#138
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: 767 FO
Posts: 396
Duke-
Lots of history in the answer to your question.
Short version -- it was done in the NWA bankruptcy under the threat of 1113 contract rejection.
Management was demanding more outsourced flying and the pilots were able to get some flow-through language in return. Management held all the cards at the time because they had a federal BK judge to help.
This is not a North/South thing at all. We all live under the same scope clause now.
Lots of history in the answer to your question.
Short version -- it was done in the NWA bankruptcy under the threat of 1113 contract rejection.
Management was demanding more outsourced flying and the pilots were able to get some flow-through language in return. Management held all the cards at the time because they had a federal BK judge to help.
This is not a North/South thing at all. We all live under the same scope clause now.
Many things, of course, have changed since then.
07-02-2010, 11:46 AM
#139
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 309
Therefore, the language in the CBA that states that the 71-76 seater cap reverts downward if the "flow provisions of LOA 2006-10 and 2006-14 cease to be available" appears to be superseded by the language within the LOA itself. Compass can cancel the flow up, only the flow down has to remain in place.
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