Spirit pilots have a TA!!!
07-09-2010, 04:27 AM
#272
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Posts: 805
They could do a pro rate agreement which I bet more regional carriers will be doing as their fee for departure contracts expire. ExpressJet did this with Delta and Skywest does this with United I believe.
The company is allowed to dry lease the airplanes as long as it does not furlough pilots. I believe that Conitental ownes all the ERJ's and dry leases them to ExpressJet.
B. Scope
1. Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, all flying on the
Company’s aircraft (whether leased to or owned by the Company) or
under the Company’s operational control, including wet leases (aircraft
and crew), and contracting for other carriers or entities (government,
military or commercial), but not dry leases (aircraft but no crew) to
other carriers or entities, shall be performed by pilots on the Spirit
Airline Pilots Seniority List.
2. Notwithstanding Section 1.B.1. above, the Company may assign or
contract out revenue flying for a period not in excess of ninety (90)
days per occurrence if (a) such conduct is necessary to accomplish
the needs of the service of the Company, and (b) the Company does
not have sufficient aircraft or pilots to perform the revenue flying
assigned or contracted out, and (c) no Company pilot is furloughed as
a result of such contracting out of revenue flying. The Company shall
provide notice to the Association prior to entering any agreement to
assign or contract out revenue flying.
3. Nothing in this Section shall preclude the Company from entering
into a code-share agreement, a marketing agreement, an interline
agreement, or a pro-rate or block space agreement, so long as such
agreements do not result in the furlough of any of the Company’s
pilots.
The company is allowed to dry lease the airplanes as long as it does not furlough pilots. I believe that Conitental ownes all the ERJ's and dry leases them to ExpressJet.
B. Scope
1. Except as otherwise provided in this Agreement, all flying on the
Company’s aircraft (whether leased to or owned by the Company) or
under the Company’s operational control, including wet leases (aircraft
and crew), and contracting for other carriers or entities (government,
military or commercial), but not dry leases (aircraft but no crew) to
other carriers or entities, shall be performed by pilots on the Spirit
Airline Pilots Seniority List.
2. Notwithstanding Section 1.B.1. above, the Company may assign or
contract out revenue flying for a period not in excess of ninety (90)
days per occurrence if (a) such conduct is necessary to accomplish
the needs of the service of the Company, and (b) the Company does
not have sufficient aircraft or pilots to perform the revenue flying
assigned or contracted out, and (c) no Company pilot is furloughed as
a result of such contracting out of revenue flying. The Company shall
provide notice to the Association prior to entering any agreement to
assign or contract out revenue flying.
3. Nothing in this Section shall preclude the Company from entering
into a code-share agreement, a marketing agreement, an interline
agreement, or a pro-rate or block space agreement, so long as such
agreements do not result in the furlough of any of the Company’s
pilots.
We lost 2 seperate arbitrations regarding letting pilots go as their flying was replaced by another airline.
The sad thing is I don't think there is much that can be done to protect anyone. It doesn't much matter(in my opinion) what your contract says. If the company wants to violate it they will. They then just have to find a judge/arbitrator who says it's ok. We have had 30 years of more and more conservative/business friendly governing on the Federal level. The current crop of judges/arbitrators have been selected by a more and more business orientated Federal govt...this is in all 3 branches..executive, congress and even the supreme court.
What we have seen happen to our careers (and middle class standard of living) is the direct result of the last 30 years shifting of sympathies by the general public. These sympathies are reflected by the people in power whom make policy.
07-09-2010, 09:01 AM
#273
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 532
The more I think about this, the more it makes me sick. I didn't want to believe it, but we really are being used by ALPA national. They used us as a tool to show other managements that their groups can get "released". All they were telling us was "PAY PARITY". We went on strike for that. That didn't happen, in fact, we actually took several steps backwards(loss of time and half work day off, reserve efficiencies to the company, increase of 50% for PPO health plans, no stock options when this place goes public, increase to 90 hours block/month)
Now we are being intimidated at the road shows. What the F? The answer is very clear, vote NO and send this TA back. We can improve it and get our pride back.
Now we are being intimidated at the road shows. What the F? The answer is very clear, vote NO and send this TA back. We can improve it and get our pride back.
07-09-2010, 09:05 AM
#274
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 1,610
(Pay Pariyty) didn't happen, in fact, we actually took several steps backwards(loss of time and half work day off, reserve efficiencies to the company, increase of 50% for PPO health plans, no stock options when this place goes public, increase to 90 hours block/month)
07-09-2010, 09:21 AM
#275
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2009
Position: Delta M88 A ATL
Posts: 383
SCOPE
3. Nothing in this Section shall preclude the Company from entering
into a code-share agreement, a marketing agreement, an interline
agreement, or a pro-rate or block space agreement, so long as
such agreements do not result in the furlough of any of the
Company's pilots
This gets my no vote
3. Nothing in this Section shall preclude the Company from entering
into a code-share agreement, a marketing agreement, an interline
agreement, or a pro-rate or block space agreement, so long as
such agreements do not result in the furlough of any of the
Company's pilots
This gets my no vote
This sounds like management wants to keep the door open for some regional that fly big RJ's. Didn't Republic place an order for 40 Bombard C Series, with up to 140 seats?
Scope is very important, NWA used to have 195 DC9's flying around,....today we have 50,........but our regional fleet has grown significantly.
things can always slip by in a TA, be careful and "watch their feet".
07-09-2010, 09:30 AM
#276
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,577
Let me ask you a question. Spirit pilots get an offer, they decline it and go on strike. Because of the effect of the strike, Spirit pilots get a second offer that is "worse" than the first TA.
So now your answer is to go on strike again, and you think the TA will get better????
So now your answer is to go on strike again, and you think the TA will get better????
Strike or not is completely up to the company. Standard pay is not an unreasonable request. As management, why would you do irreparable damage to your company because one group wants standard pay? You wouldn't. They have the highest margins of any airline in the industry by a long shot. The POS TA we are discussing was brokered by the NMB, and national said you'll take it and like it, because they need the NMB chick to look good in her first attempt. SPA doesn't need the NMB anymore, ALPA national does. In a nutshell, we are supposed to eat this crap sandwich to help other ALPA carriers gain favor with the NMB.
We were (are) in a position of ultimate power, and negotiated from a position of total weakness. Truly embarrassing.
You don't come off a strike with less than you went in with. The company will cry poor (is margins above), make you feel bad about flight attendants, agents, mx, admin, ect who's jobs we are putting on the line... That is not OUR area of influence, we only control our own group. If they can't pay standard wages, then the business model doesn't work, and the free market will deal with it like it always does. If you don't fight for yourself, no one else will. Have a little pride in your work, and say no to substandard wages.
07-09-2010, 10:06 AM
#277
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD80
Posts: 394
The more I think about this, the more it makes me sick. I didn't want to believe it, but we really are being used by ALPA national. They used us as a tool to show other managements that their groups can get "released". All they were telling us was "PAY PARITY". We went on strike for that. That didn't happen, in fact, we actually took several steps backwards(loss of time and half work day off, reserve efficiencies to the company, increase of 50% for PPO health plans, no stock options when this place goes public, increase to 90 hours block/month)
Now we are being intimidated at the road shows. What the F? The answer is very clear, vote NO and send this TA back. We can improve it and get our pride back.
Now we are being intimidated at the road shows. What the F? The answer is very clear, vote NO and send this TA back. We can improve it and get our pride back.
And if Spirit goes out of business because of a pilot's strike? "Well, we showed them! Look at the power of ALPA!"
They'd still look at it as a victory, regardless of what happens to Spirit pilots.
07-09-2010, 10:10 AM
#278
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2009
Posts: 532
Oh, I thought the second offer was "improved". NK had strike insurance, so don't feel too bad for them.
As for the eliminating the 150% Work Day Off, don't you see that as socialistic. The reason for eliminating the 150% is to have more upgrades and hire more FO's. So one group has to sacrifice in order for another group to prosper. Aren't you a Republican? This is socialism. I have not done overtime in years, but it nice to have it as an option isn't it? You vote YES, and it will be gone forever. As for the extremely small group that "takes advantage" of the 150%, why punish 98% of the pilot for the 2% that "abuse" it.
07-09-2010, 05:12 PM
#279
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2010
Posts: 1,577
Oh, I thought the second offer was "improved". NK had strike insurance, so don't feel too bad for them.
Yes, that is my answer. Isn't it better than taking one for the team. It is going to hurt when you see what airtran gets in the near future. It is going to hurt when this place goes public and you get absolutely nothing. Do you honestly think NK will allow a second strike without offering an improved TA? I don't.
As for the eliminating the 150% Work Day Off, don't you see that as socialistic. The reason for eliminating the 150% is to have more upgrades and hire more FO's. So one group has to sacrifice in order for another group to prosper. Aren't you a Republican? This is socialism. I have not done overtime in years, but it nice to have it as an option isn't it? You vote YES, and it will be gone forever. As for the extremely small group that "takes advantage" of the 150%, why punish 98% of the pilot for the 2% that "abuse" it.
Yes, that is my answer. Isn't it better than taking one for the team. It is going to hurt when you see what airtran gets in the near future. It is going to hurt when this place goes public and you get absolutely nothing. Do you honestly think NK will allow a second strike without offering an improved TA? I don't.
As for the eliminating the 150% Work Day Off, don't you see that as socialistic. The reason for eliminating the 150% is to have more upgrades and hire more FO's. So one group has to sacrifice in order for another group to prosper. Aren't you a Republican? This is socialism. I have not done overtime in years, but it nice to have it as an option isn't it? You vote YES, and it will be gone forever. As for the extremely small group that "takes advantage" of the 150%, why punish 98% of the pilot for the 2% that "abuse" it.
Just curious, how do you 'abuse' picking up ot?
Is there an unwritten limit? I understand the 'guys on furlough' argument, but other than that I don't understand why anyone gives a rat's butt where/when/how much I work.
Oddly, some of the same people railing against working OT due to furloughs, are more than happy to vote in a TA with MASSIVE efficiency increases for the company, thus putting the wood to those currently furloughed much harder than a couple people picking up OT. They can build lines to 90 hours under this TA, the same as forcing EVERYONE to pick up an extra 5 hour trip. Of course this forced OT is at straight time, so its ok. Good for the company to fill the ot, bad for the membership to make money on it.
07-09-2010, 05:55 PM
#280
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: A 320 CA, retired
Posts: 89
It's a chain reaction. When the 2% pick up open time regularly @150%, we all know things happen during the course of the day to cause delays. Then they run into 30 and 7 problems or 24 hours off in 7 days. There are many more scenarios. So that causes the company to have to drop trips. Then those trips have to be covered by reserves. Now the rest of the pilots are upset because they can never get approval for use of a floating vacation day and they can't get approval for trip swaps. I've had every request for floating vacation denied due to this. The MEC got lots of feedback about this.
The new system will allow you to swap a red day for a red day.
We got something for giving up the 150% that 2% of the pilot group regularly use. If you want to know exactly what we got, call your rep.
And this is a collective bargaining agreement. We are all supposed to give up something for the good of us all to maintain something that keeps pilots on furlough and regularly benefits 2% of the population?
Let's not turn a small truth into a large conspiracy. Posting anonymously on the web is nice because one does not have to confront someone in person. In this Internet world, myths, half truths, and what you want to believe supercede data and facts. It's so much more fun to have the myths that the grassy knoll and aliens exist.
I'm voting for this contract.
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