Boneman

I haven't seen an "offical" seniority list snapshot, only the one put together by who know who using some vague criteria that may or may not be valid. I'm guessing it's pretty close, but I wouldn't put a lot of faith in anything until it's over and done; Roger!

SoCalGuy

I'm NOT trying to get into it with you....Just trying to understand your claims/facts to make sure the info is not in speculation.

The meeting was the 18th in which Brucia spoke, and the Crew News in which you refer to was 'sent' out the 19th as far as email time/date stamp. I just downloaded it, and will read it over. From what I have read thus far via Crew News, it does not say anything about the SNAPSHOT 'not being' taken as of yet.....but does explain factors/confirmation on how the validity will be confirmed.

What I posted earlier comes from what was laid-down in the meeting this past Tues from Jim's dissertation.

One of things that Jay did echo in regard to the Merger Committee...."They will operate in a vacuum" when going about their business. What I took from that, "Laze Faire" in a sense from everyone else on the sidelines w/in the CAL Camp during this process as they 'get to work' preparing for their chess-game.

Fritzthepilot

You have got to be kidding me right?

With all due respect, most, if not all of the postings on this forum between CAL and UAL have been very positive. We see what is important and what is in within our control. Every pilot I fly with at UAL has pretty much the same perspective. The one i'm currently flying with is looking forward to flying with CAL pilots for the change of faces and venues. I for one think we can accomplish a lot more as a group and get the contract we "all" deserve.

That being said..........If one starts to tinker with the snapshot, all I can say is that UAL pilots are the proverbial lion backed into the corner. All that is said about us is not true, and true at the same time. I have flown with a lot of our 1437 furloughed brothers and sisters. I will never forget the courage and professionalism they displayed when they were being furloughed for the second time. Many of them have more "longevity" than active CAL pilots. Many UAL pilots feel they were fed to wolves so UAL could right size for the merger. Some UAL pilots feel the snapshot should be a couple years earlier. CAL pilot's probably feel quite differently and that is understood.

I'm not advocating one way or the other for a SLI. I can honestly see both points of view up to tinkering with the snapshot after Fletcher and Jeffrey shook hands. My point is that tensions are very high, but well in check. This whole thing needs to pass the sniff test. Hopefully we will all be equally riled so the smell will not be of roses, but also won't be the smell of the south end of a north facing mule.

luv757

Good post Fritz. We can all win together or we can all fail together. What's gonna be fellas?

As to the snapshot. Weather or not it has already been taken/not taken is sort of irrelevant. As I understood it, the snapshot can be taken at any time, any date but it will reflect the date of the merger announcement. It can be "taken" on September 2, 2010 but it will reflect what was going on on May 3, 2010.

SLI - there are about 13942375 things that are going to go into creating the list and all of us as line pilots control exactly 0 of those things. What we do control is the JCBA. Lay out your expectations to your reps and make sure you are heard. I've had the chance to jumpseat on UAL several times in the past week and after talking to you guys my opinion is we are way more similar in what we expect than Smisek would like. Like any new family we are going to have our tough days integrating but I do think as a group we can make this a smooth and amicable one. I look forward to working with all the UAL-North guys to restore our profession and get some real gains back in terms of SCOPE, Retirment, Pay, and Quality of Life.

Last thing, I will trade EWR (or IAH depending on how this bid goes down) for SFO

EWRflyr

Agree. The current SYSTEM BID snapshot posted to the eBulletin board yesterday on COAir is definitely not correct. I spot several inconsistencies based on what I know various people have bid.

The seniority list snapshot/look/peekaboo or whatever you want to call it for CAL can easily be seen by looking at the published seniority list from January of this year. Take out the retirements since then and the list is probably pretty accurate to what they are verifying.

Now, admittedly I have not been to one of the latest union meetings due to a conflict in schedules (for some reason the company actually expects me to fly when I want to get together for a healthy discussion with my union brethren), but have also "heard" that it is conceivable that the "snapshot" used by an arbitrator is the date the merger officially CLOSES not necessarily the date it is ANNOUNCED. Not trying to stir the pot or create false hope. I really just don't know the answer to this question which is why I wanted to attend a meeting to hear the facts.

Shrek

JCBA JCBA JCBA - one meal at a time

What is going to directly affect our careers (THAT WE CAN CONTROL?) JCBA
Where do we LOCK down SCOPE? JCBA
How will our paycheck and retirement funds look like going forward? JCBA
Vacation? JCBA
Sick time calculations.......work rules? JCBA

The SLI will be handled by the respective merger committees and the lawyers and arbitrators.........by all means contact your ALPA reps and make your feelings heard and understood.

But to air them in public plays right into the hands of MGT - don't give them the gun to shoot ourselves with. We can go down the rabbitt hole stressing and expending way too much energy at each other. OR we can conserve that energy - all of us standing as a collective group - and direct all that angst where it is needed. Directly at MGT.

Maybe combined group informational-picketing would help get the "fringes" at both properties onboard?

SoCalGuy

Shrek......

One of the best/straight-up/factual post I've read on the topic of orders. I'll follow that menu as well.

Cheers
SC

luv757

Amen brother!

Captain Bligh

My first reaction too was, "You know they are going to try to play us against each other...". Realistically however; the surviving management has to consider the potential fallout if the pilots percieve any attempt to be divided and conquered. Especially if the pilots are motivated by being gamed and can preemptively cooperate and build unity.

LCC should give plenty of warning that the synergies management pines for have a short half life. I'd really like to see the books at LCC. Undoubtedly they are saving on pilot wages because a new JCBA hasn't and wont happen, but do pilot wage savings make up for all of the dual costs that still exsist at LCC (relative to management's pre merger expectations of course)?

Just conjecture, but I think you will see more of an attempt to create division at the JCBA negotiating tables, than during or as a result of SLI. ALPA more or less controls the SLI without management input. Not that management wouldn't like to tamper, but ALPA merger policy is clear.

The NCs however are highly more likely to being approached with under the table offers. Discussing our concerns publically, gives us chance work on those issues and to direct our union officials accordingly. This is as a golden opportunity for ALPA, especially leadership at the national level, to do the right thing.

I've been considering some advanced degree work in a totally unrelated field - trying to grow personally and I thought this piece was interesting and may summarize our situation regardless of the color of your current uniform.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prisoner's_dilemma

http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/prisoner-dilemma/

Shrek

I think both NCs are ready willing and able to resist those temptations that no doubtedly will be thrown their way.

As most of the US pilot industry knows how big an oppurtunity it is to reverse the continual downward slide of our profession - so does every major airline BOD - to try to keep things as close to status quo as possible. They KNOW they will have to give something, but the more they "keep" for shareholder value the bigger the bonus check will be for them.

This is the playing field that is layed out before us. I firmly believe we have the collective talent and intelligence to play this chess match and right the course of our profession.