ALPA Leadership and scabs
08-22-2006, 05:26 PM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Position: A300 Captain
Posts: 257
Maybe moral was the wrong choice of words originally; maybe just leadership alone, however I stand by my previous cpr statement. I don't consider saving someone who would step over your back and screw you worthy of being saved. A man's got to have his limitations and that's one of mine, sorry.
09-13-2006, 04:43 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2005
Position: Retired
Posts: 157
Also, some blame has to be accepted by each pilot, because if you didn't have extra savings, or been more diversified, or more cautious as you reached retirement then you're setting yourself up for disaster.
How would what a individual does with his or hers personal income have anything to do with a contractoral agreement regarding pension benefits.
The fact that I invested properly or didn't has nothing to do with pension benefits achieved in a contract.
How would what a individual does with his or hers personal income have anything to do with a contractoral agreement regarding pension benefits.
The fact that I invested properly or didn't has nothing to do with pension benefits achieved in a contract.
09-13-2006, 11:41 AM
#36
No one's home
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,091
Which, leads me to the next point about what ALPA national has done about the pensions at US Air, United and Delta. I submit, what magical power other than what they've done would have changed anything in bankruptcy court. They've used every legal and legislative power they have to mitigate the devistation of each companies circumstances, but each had different pensions and different dynamics in play. I know any pilot at any of these companies or any hurting carrier wants someone to blame, but the anger should be directed toward the worthless management's that got you where you are. Also, some blame has to be accepted by each pilot, because if you didn't have extra savings, or been more diversified, or more cautious as you reached retirement then you're setting yourself up for disaster.
.
Mitigate the devastation? Right. First the guys who had retired were toasted because ALPA said it doesn't represent retired pilots. And the MEC had repeatedly told the pilot group that there would be a vote from the rank and file before any action would be taken to terminate the pension. Didn't happen.
The only thing that did happen is Jerry Glass and USAir created the template whereby the airline industry could strip the pilot group of the pension plans. And all ALPA did was send 'strongly worded letters', some of which began 'Dear Jerry..."
As for Woerth's compensation, a *leader* is in front of the troops. A *leader* takes the hits the same as the guys in the trenches. When many in the rank and file were losing their seats and then taking additional pay cuts which amounted to MORE than a 50% compensation cut, Duh-wayne received an increase in his compensation package. It would be more befitting if he took off the Captain's hat and wore a crown.
After losing more than 50% of my pension (and I am one of the fortunate ones amid this 'devastation), pardon me if I don't wave the flag.
09-13-2006, 11:48 AM
#37
No one's home
Joined APC: Aug 2006
Posts: 1,091
From your avatar, I would assume you are at FEDEX and have ridden the wave nicely. Good for you. But for others who have seen their hard earned *deferred income* vanish with the rap of a gavel, it is a markedly different event. I don't think you have either the perspective or the moral authority to cast dispersions on anyone's character when they have lost millions and your compensation package is still intact.
09-13-2006, 02:43 PM
#38
AAmerican Way for AA Pay
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: B-737 Pilot
Posts: 1,617
Amen! ALPA fails ANOTHER pilot group!
I don't know where you got your info on the actions of National when USAir was trying to terminate the pension but you are WRONG! I know USAir guys who walked the halls of Congress for weeks. These guys are above reproach and I was told by them repeatedly they saw NO ONE and NO INPUT from ALPA national. NONE!
Mitigate the devastation? Right. First the guys who had retired were toasted because ALPA said it doesn't represent retired pilots. And the MEC had repeatedly told the pilot group that there would be a vote from the rank and file before any action would be taken to terminate the pension. Didn't happen.
As for Woerth's compensation, a *leader* is in front of the troops. A *leader* takes the hits the same as the guys in the trenches. When many in the rank and file were losing their seats and then taking additional pay cuts which amounted to MORE than a 50% compensation cut, Duh-wayne received an increase in his compensation package. It would be more befitting if he took off the Captain's hat and wore a crown.
After losing more than 50% of my pension (and I am one of the fortunate ones amid this 'devastation), pardon me if I don't wave the flag.
Mitigate the devastation? Right. First the guys who had retired were toasted because ALPA said it doesn't represent retired pilots. And the MEC had repeatedly told the pilot group that there would be a vote from the rank and file before any action would be taken to terminate the pension. Didn't happen.
As for Woerth's compensation, a *leader* is in front of the troops. A *leader* takes the hits the same as the guys in the trenches. When many in the rank and file were losing their seats and then taking additional pay cuts which amounted to MORE than a 50% compensation cut, Duh-wayne received an increase in his compensation package. It would be more befitting if he took off the Captain's hat and wore a crown.
After losing more than 50% of my pension (and I am one of the fortunate ones amid this 'devastation), pardon me if I don't wave the flag.
I went through the same thing in '01 when AA bought TWA and massacred the employee group shamelessly. Today, only 1500 out of 22,500 TWA employees still work at AA.
09-13-2006, 02:56 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Posts: 2,838
I FEEL your pain, brother. You are right----USAirways pilots were on their own, and national ALPA did nothing to help. Why? It wasn't in their best interest AND not on their priority list. ALPA has made a long history of 'selling-out' ALPA pilot groups, if the big picture fits. Don't ever count on ALPA helping your airline; if it is in their best interest to serve you up with chips on a platter to be sacrificed, they'll do it. Pensions, seniority, furloughs, jobs, whatever.
I went through the same thing in '01 when AA bought TWA and massacred the employee group shamelessly. Today, only 1500 out of 22,500 TWA employees still work at AA.
I went through the same thing in '01 when AA bought TWA and massacred the employee group shamelessly. Today, only 1500 out of 22,500 TWA employees still work at AA.
Could you explain why USAir pilots were on their own ? (BTW at that time 2 USAir Pilots were National Officers).
Can you explain why you stated it was not in ALPA's best interest to Help them?
I do feel sorry for the former TWA folks and think they definitely got Hind teat so to speak, butcorrect me if I am wrong.
First off the local MEC are responsible for their own negotiations.
Didn't the TWA MEC , not ALPA National agree to VOID the TWA Contract Scope/merger/successorship clause as a prerequisite to the AA merger? and thus By doing so this took away all your protections and legal recourses?
I am sure the APA lobbied AA MGT as well.
Isn't your real beef with the former TWA MEC members and the APA............not ALPA NAtional?
Last edited by RedeyeAV8r; 09-13-2006 at 04:13 PM.
09-13-2006, 05:01 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: MD80
Posts: 394
I do feel sorry for the former TWA folks and think they definitely got Hind teat so to speak, butcorrect me if I am wrong.
First off the local MEC are responsible for their own negotiations.
Didn't the TWA MEC , not ALPA National agree to VOID the TWA Contract Scope/merger/successorship clause as a prerequisite to the AA merger? and thus By doing so this took away all your protections and legal recourses?
I am sure the APA lobbied AA MGT as well.
Isn't your real beef with the former TWA MEC members and the APA............not ALPA NAtional?
First off the local MEC are responsible for their own negotiations.
Didn't the TWA MEC , not ALPA National agree to VOID the TWA Contract Scope/merger/successorship clause as a prerequisite to the AA merger? and thus By doing so this took away all your protections and legal recourses?
I am sure the APA lobbied AA MGT as well.
Isn't your real beef with the former TWA MEC members and the APA............not ALPA NAtional?
The fact that the ALPA lawyers were insistant that there was no other alternative but to give up the scope/successorship clause should have been suspect enough.
ALPA, nor did it's law firm, failed to divulge that the law firm used by ALPA was also used by APFA...the union that represents the American flight attendants.
There was conflict of interest all around. If you'll read the suit against ALPA you'll find that one of the claims is the numerous misrepresentations of what would happen if the TWA pilot's hadn't given up the scope/successorship clause. Combine that with American's/TWA LLC's use of the 1113 clause seeking to void the contract and the TWA Pilot's were left with nothing but a hollow promise of American using (and implementing) the results of a reasonable best efforts promise that turned into a "sh!t sandwich."
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