House wants 1500hrs, sends bill back
03-27-2010, 06:10 AM
#81
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Posts: 138
No regional pilot is going to make MD-80 pay flying a CRJ, but there is no reason they are paid the same per diem, have similar schedules, benefits and treatment. Pay would have to increase to attract pilots, but no one will become rich flying at a regional. Captain pay at most is commensurate with their size of aircraft. It's the FO's who are severely under paid. First year pay may go up a little, say $25 but subsequent years will have to quickly shoot up to a career-sustaining level at 35-40/hour or 60% of Captain pay, whichever is higher and probably peaking around 50-60/hour in 5 or more years. Benefits and schedules will have to also be brought up to the same level as major airlines, so the Captain's will benefit from this too.
03-27-2010, 06:11 AM
#82
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Posts: 138
Maybe I missed something...but I never saw anything that specifically said you must have x amout of crew hours to get an ATP or work for a 121 operation. I just saw the common code word of TRAINING for an ATP or an airline. So who ever does your ATP or airline hiring would probably be forced to have some new specific TRAINING for your multi crew experience. Anyone have any thoughts????
03-27-2010, 06:23 AM
#83
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03-27-2010, 06:26 AM
#84
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03-27-2010, 09:40 AM
#86
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Posts: 403
The military is not an option for 95% of young pilots. Soon with the UAVs there will be 0 pilots coming from the military to airlines so it's probably ridiculous to recommend someone to a 10+ year commitment in the armed services who will never see 1 flight hour. Seriously, how many pilots are leaving the military for the airlines right now? Let's get real.
The only ones who benefit from 1500 hr minimums are the ATP flight schools ("puppy mills") of the world. They will just develop a 0-1500 hr program for $150,000 and now because first year FO pay has gone up to $30,000 a year people will line up for that program.
The real problem stems from deregulation and the lack of barriers to entry for airlines into the market. The average consumer will almost always choose the lowest fare available, and so it perpetuates the ultra-lowcost startup airlines that grab market share for the 1 yr they can stay afloat before capitalization runs out, and then they reorganize as some other bottom-feeder airline with an amazing deal in aircraft financing and airport subsidies. And the regional airline that can do the job for $1 less than the competion gets the contract because the mainline airline costs are lower.
I got hired in 2007 during the peak of the "boom" and the lowest time guy in the class had 2000 hours. This legislation is smoke and mirrors for the dim-witted airline passenger. And the reality of the whole mess is that the airlines (incl. regionals) are pretty f-ing safe right now. Look at the statistics.
Do I want to get paid more money? YES. But this legislation is only going to cause tremendous shortfalls in the future and none of us will ever see an additional dime from it. Best bet- vote out everyone in office and send a message things are unsat (and hope for reregulation).
The only ones who benefit from 1500 hr minimums are the ATP flight schools ("puppy mills") of the world. They will just develop a 0-1500 hr program for $150,000 and now because first year FO pay has gone up to $30,000 a year people will line up for that program.
The real problem stems from deregulation and the lack of barriers to entry for airlines into the market. The average consumer will almost always choose the lowest fare available, and so it perpetuates the ultra-lowcost startup airlines that grab market share for the 1 yr they can stay afloat before capitalization runs out, and then they reorganize as some other bottom-feeder airline with an amazing deal in aircraft financing and airport subsidies. And the regional airline that can do the job for $1 less than the competion gets the contract because the mainline airline costs are lower.
I got hired in 2007 during the peak of the "boom" and the lowest time guy in the class had 2000 hours. This legislation is smoke and mirrors for the dim-witted airline passenger. And the reality of the whole mess is that the airlines (incl. regionals) are pretty f-ing safe right now. Look at the statistics.
Do I want to get paid more money? YES. But this legislation is only going to cause tremendous shortfalls in the future and none of us will ever see an additional dime from it. Best bet- vote out everyone in office and send a message things are unsat (and hope for reregulation).
I'm sorry, but I think there might be a bit of a disconnect with reality here.
Who in their right mind is going to line up to pay $150,000 to get 1500 hours so they can have the "opportunity" to work for $30,000 a year. (Are you a management pilot at a regional?)
If that were the case, these pilot mills you speak of would do it now so that pilots could skip the regionals and go right to the major carriers.
1500 hours isn't that big of a deal. 10-20 years ago, everyone had at least 1500 hours before they went to work for a regional or a legacy. This will just push us back towards that.
People will find a way to get 1500 hours, and it won't be that hard. This is just a roadblock that people will find a way around. It would be nice to have more roadblocks like this.
The more roadblocks to entry and wages will go up. It's common sense. This puts the leverage in the pilots hands instead of management hands.
If the administrators at hospitals had it their way, they would allow doctors to be qualified after just a year of med school. That way, they can get cheap labor. These barriers to entry turn off a lot of people who would otherwise never have joined a profession. In fact, they are already doing this by allowing nurses to do more and more and I think even coming up with certificates that allow labor to perform certain medical procedures without being a doctor.
1500 hours min for 121 flying is an excellent start.
03-27-2010, 10:20 AM
#87
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I happen to be one of the so called 5% who could never have flown for the military, and believe me I did check. I don't know how you can possibly think the military will accept 95% of applicants into a flight slot. I know of a guy who almost went that route, until they found out that he previously had a kidney stone, as in he had the kidney stone years prior to looking into the military...there went that opportunity. He had aced whatever tests he had to take prior to getting in, and has better than perfect vision, but apprently a kidney stone is disqualifying. The military just isn't an option for more people than you may think.
03-27-2010, 12:47 PM
#89
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That is partially correct. There are several reasons that a pilot (CA or FO) who carries passengers for a scheduled air carrier needs to have a significant amount of hours before he can be hired. Other than what you said and what everybody is dwelling on in this thread (increased pay) a few other important reasons to keep in mind are: The wash out factor; should have scared the crap out of ones self at least once by 1500tt; overall maturity; level of responsibility, etc. Not everyone that reaches 1500tt will show positive reflections on the reasons above but more will than do today.
03-27-2010, 12:54 PM
#90
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Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 747 FO
Posts: 937
If you are concerned about medical disqualification, that is BS too. I agree that some people with medical anomalies will have some trouble, but most people can be qualified as long as they don't weigh 300 lbs and are a big fat slob. Even if there is an issue, almost anything in the military can be "waived" to get someone into training, short of missing an eye or an arm.....................I'm sorry, but I think there might be a bit of a disconnect with reality here.
Who in their right mind is going to line up to pay $150,000 to get 1500 hours so they can have the "opportunity" to work for $30,000 a year. (Are you a management pilot at a regional?)
If that were the case, these pilot mills you speak of would do it now so that pilots could skip the regionals and go right to the major carriers.
1500 hours isn't that big of a deal. 10-20 years ago, everyone had at least 1500 hours before they went to work for a regional or a legacy. This will just push us back towards that.
People will find a way to get 1500 hours, and it won't be that hard. This is just a roadblock that people will find a way around. It would be nice to have more roadblocks like this.
The more roadblocks to entry and wages will go up. It's common sense. This puts the leverage in the pilots hands instead of management hands.
If the administrators at hospitals had it their way, they would allow doctors to be qualified after just a year of med school. That way, they can get cheap labor. These barriers to entry turn off a lot of people who would otherwise never have joined a profession. In fact, they are already doing this by allowing nurses to do more and more and I think even coming up with certificates that allow labor to perform certain medical procedures without being a doctor.
1500 hours min for 121 flying is an excellent start.
People will find a way to get 1500 hours, and it won't be that hard. This is just a roadblock that people will find a way around. It would be nice to have more roadblocks like this.
The more roadblocks to entry and wages will go up. It's common sense. This puts the leverage in the pilots hands instead of management hands.
If the administrators at hospitals had it their way, they would allow doctors to be qualified after just a year of med school. That way, they can get cheap labor. These barriers to entry turn off a lot of people who would otherwise never have joined a profession. In fact, they are already doing this by allowing nurses to do more and more and I think even coming up with certificates that allow labor to perform certain medical procedures without being a doctor.
1500 hours min for 121 flying is an excellent start.
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