House wants 1500hrs, sends bill back
#141
Originally Posted by bcrosier
Call me crazy, but I thought the pay for CFI'ing has always been very low.
Call me crazy, but I thought the pay for CFI'ing has always been very low.
Originally Posted by bcrosier
I have to laugh at this one a bit - you haven't been around here too long have you kid?
I have to laugh at this one a bit - you haven't been around here too long have you kid?
Originally Posted by bcrosier
I'm not saying it's right - in fact, I actually agree it's a bad thing that CFI'ing pays so poorly that few do it as a career. For better or for worse, we have a long tradition of CFI being THE entry level job in aviation, and of CFI's splitting as soon as they found a better position.
I'm not saying it's right - in fact, I actually agree it's a bad thing that CFI'ing pays so poorly that few do it as a career. For better or for worse, we have a long tradition of CFI being THE entry level job in aviation, and of CFI's splitting as soon as they found a better position.
Originally Posted by bcrosier
The real problem is the airlines (and many other industries as well) have been overrun by Gordon Gekko wannabees who were successful at cooking books and manipulating companies for high short term gains. Unfortunately, they have ZERO ability to actually run a company nor to plan for long term growth.
The real problem is the airlines (and many other industries as well) have been overrun by Gordon Gekko wannabees who were successful at cooking books and manipulating companies for high short term gains. Unfortunately, they have ZERO ability to actually run a company nor to plan for long term growth.
Originally Posted by bcrosier
Note - I don't have an issue with low-time pilots in the right seat of a jet. It can be a tremendous learning experience given an appropriate mentor in the left seat, and passengers who understand what they are getting (i.e; the captain may elect to divert rather than fly an approach to minimums in demanding weather and airspace due to the limitations of the FO).
Note - I don't have an issue with low-time pilots in the right seat of a jet. It can be a tremendous learning experience given an appropriate mentor in the left seat, and passengers who understand what they are getting (i.e; the captain may elect to divert rather than fly an approach to minimums in demanding weather and airspace due to the limitations of the FO).
1500 hours minumum is a great start to fixing the industry. But we shouldn't stop there. The industry as a whole is in dire need of a major overhaul. Start with training...
It was the airline's policies that allowed a subpar captain to pilot the aircraft in the first place. In my opinion it is not all about the low time FO in the right seat as much is it is about a subpar captain with a history of deficiencies who was still allowed to progress through the system. He too started out as a low time FO, but if the correct standards where applied he should not have made captain when he did. As a captain I made a couple trips to the Chief Pilot's office to report a subpar FO and/or recommend a pilot not be upgraded yet because they were not ready. Before I made that trip, I also shared my opinion directly with the FO and suggested to them they areas in which they needed to improve. As a captain and instructor I felt it was one of my duties. I also briefed every FO to uphold me to the same standard. Every pilot should be capable of handling constructive critism.
#142
Eats shoots and leaves...
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Didactic Synthetic Aviation Experience Provider
Posts: 849
R1830 - It sounds like you and I are in conceptual agreement about much of this. You are completely correct - the industry is a complete mess and needs a total overhaul.
#143
Then why did 33% of my military pilot training class wash-out despite the careful selection process and practical pre-screening? In the military you were given a set number of rides to master the task and if you didn't cut it, you were gone. They used to say that it's not necessarily that person can't learn to fly, they just can't learn to in the brief number of hours and time allotted to the program.
Just because your military class had washouts due to them not being able to maintain uncle sam's rigid schedule, doesn't change the fact that in the military you receive the best training that money can buy. And it is a testament to that training that our military has young pilots flying amazingly complex machines in complex airspace and are operationally safe.
#144
#145
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: 747 FO
Posts: 937
That said, your opinion is duly noted.
#146
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2009
Posts: 5,242
#147
Perhaps the FAA(Congress) should change that bullet to read "help promote SAFE commercial aviation."
#148
Well there is a reason that the JAA won't accept a US FAA ATP as valid to transfer into a European ATP certificate.
Have you ever seen the amount of books required to pass a JAA ATP course?
Not sure I'd be at a major airline now if the standards in the US were the same as over there, it would have taken an extra year or two. (Would have probably stayed in the military and flown there instead of getting out).
We need to adopt much more stringent ATP standards, that will be equivalent to JAA standards......
(Though I'll take a grandfather clause, thank you!)
Have you ever seen the amount of books required to pass a JAA ATP course?
Not sure I'd be at a major airline now if the standards in the US were the same as over there, it would have taken an extra year or two. (Would have probably stayed in the military and flown there instead of getting out).
We need to adopt much more stringent ATP standards, that will be equivalent to JAA standards......
(Though I'll take a grandfather clause, thank you!)
#149
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2005
Position: CA
Posts: 534
#150
The whole "1500 hours" qualification is a straw man anyway. The military takes guys with zero time, gives them 450 hours of standardized instruction and puts them in the right seat of C-17s, C-130s, etc. There are foreign airlines that run the same kind of ab initio program and plug low time guys in the right seat of 737s.
This does not show that these folks who have this 450 hours are doing a great job in their position. They are likely all better pilots after they have flown 1500 hours and better yet after 3000 hours.
Neither of these operations suffer inordinate accident rates.[/quote]
I beg to disagree, the military writes off aircraft in accidents on a regular basis.
I also remember a foriegn aircraft crew who could not tell the difference between a takeoff warning horn and the 10000 foot cabin warning.
Major US airlines display and accident rate substantially lower than these two examples.
Expirience is a good thing and things done before airline flying are often much more outside the box and therefor develop more stick and rudder skills and judgement than the daily flying by the numbers airline environment can.
This does not show that these folks who have this 450 hours are doing a great job in their position. They are likely all better pilots after they have flown 1500 hours and better yet after 3000 hours.
Neither of these operations suffer inordinate accident rates.[/quote]
I beg to disagree, the military writes off aircraft in accidents on a regular basis.
I also remember a foriegn aircraft crew who could not tell the difference between a takeoff warning horn and the 10000 foot cabin warning.
Major US airlines display and accident rate substantially lower than these two examples.
Expirience is a good thing and things done before airline flying are often much more outside the box and therefor develop more stick and rudder skills and judgement than the daily flying by the numbers airline environment can.
Last edited by Godzilla; 03-29-2010 at 12:50 PM.
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