View Poll Results: Why are you here?
I just want to complaint about the stupid South practices.
12
20.00%
I just want to complaint about the North Whiners, and speak on behalf of DBMS and small paychecks.
5
8.33%
I just want to complaint.
10
16.67%
What time is practice?
33
55.00%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll
DAL/NWA 4: The Search for Best Practices
02-02-2010, 04:09 AM
#31
No longer cares
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Position: 767er Captain
Posts: 12,109
Item 9. Off rotation DH to work would prefer positive space to work instead of to home. Personal request but making money more important than getting home
I don't understand. If you're DH'ing off rotation, i.e. deviating, I always understood you were on your own.
I don't understand. If you're DH'ing off rotation, i.e. deviating, I always understood you were on your own.
Last edited by tsquare; 02-02-2010 at 08:29 AM.
02-02-2010, 06:08 AM
#33
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 132
02-02-2010, 06:53 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2009
Posts: 132
Hey Sink
I think this training vs line flying thing is a cultural issue. At NW there was no division between sim instructors and LCPs. Consequently we flew the airplane exactly the way we trained for it. There was none of this "We'll teach you how to really fly the a/c once you get on line" sort of thing. To the fNWs its a little odd. Why not just start the way you mean to go on?
It's true that there are a few items I have to look up in the QRH maneuvers section, but even Vol 1 contains flight patterns now. I recently had recurrent, and was surprised how little I needed from the FCTM. I'm willing to keep an open mind on this one as well.
02-02-2010, 07:09 AM
#35
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Posts: 1,242
I just called Crew Skeds using the direct phone number. I got the wrong desk and was told that all the numbers changed yesterday to "even the workload". "INFO ONLY". We are probably going to see alot of this for awhile.
02-02-2010, 07:36 AM
#36
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
Hey Sink
I think this training vs line flying thing is a cultural issue. At NW there was no division between sim instructors and LCPs. Consequently we flew the airplane exactly the way we trained for it. There was none of this "We'll teach you how to really fly the a/c once you get on line" sort of thing. To the fNWs its a little odd. Why not just start the way you mean to go on?
I think this training vs line flying thing is a cultural issue. At NW there was no division between sim instructors and LCPs. Consequently we flew the airplane exactly the way we trained for it. There was none of this "We'll teach you how to really fly the a/c once you get on line" sort of thing. To the fNWs its a little odd. Why not just start the way you mean to go on?
I believe it's a cultural issue as well. On the Delta side, we always made a big deal of separating Technique from Procedure. If you were training, they'd have several acronyms, or several methods they would "suggest", but not "teach". You could definitely get busted for failing to respect procedure, but not technique. While in general, everyone went along with the instructor or LCA, it hasn't been uncommon to tell them our own little preference where leeway was granted, and they generally don't push it further. Of course, if you do that, you better not screw up a procedure just therafter.
Now, the way it was explained to me, a NW cockpit is run in a far, far more scripted manner. I don't think you make much difference between technique and procedure: I'm told it's pretty much all procedure. When an event occurs, everyone knows exactly what to say, and what to do, down to the syllable. 90% of line operations are like that for us, but I guess we define what we do more in terms of what's not forbidden, which makes it somehwat more flexible.
Before you pronounce this flexibility as being chaotic (not saying you have, but you might), it will be nice to work in the same cockpit. There are reasons we do what we do, and it actually leads to a very effective, professional cockpit. But if you're coming at this from a strictly academic perspective, then I can imagine a number of things don't compute.
I'm a civilian guy, but in a way it sounds like NW was run more like an Air Force unit, Delta more like a Navy unit. Does it sound to you like this describes the philosophical difference correctly?
So, as we start mixing crews, my guess is that North guys will be a little frustrated by a cockpit they don't perceive to be as tight, or as predictable. To us, it's very predictable, and the areas in which we enjoy flexibility, we guard jealously. We're not really looking forward to losing more and more discretion, but we certainly will lose some, in the process of creating cockpits that work for everyone. Since I believe Flight Ops may eventually meet us somewhere in the middle, and that you probably will agree that we want to retain some degree of flexibility, then it's going to take working together, for some time, to find a happy medium.
Time is the key, in my mind, which is why I'm not eager to slice and dice the manuals until crews actually have some experience together, and reach a useful consensus. My preference would be to live together under a set of procedures before we decide what's next, just the same way people recommend you live in a house for a year before you decide how to remodel. I'm not opposed to discussing these things now, because you're concerned about them now, so I'll keep an open mind.
02-02-2010, 09:10 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 3,910
The slide vacation was handled during the PBS run. You could move your vacation up to 3 days in either direction. It would move the vacation exactly what you specified.
There was also a "Float vacation" command, which would permit your vacation to be moved 1, 2, or 3 days (depending on what you set). If the system couldn't build you a schedule, it would tweak your vacation in each direction to see if it could build something that way.
Now there is a LOT of misunderstandng about the ANY command with vacation. You were NOT selling your vacation back.
When PBS starts its run, it does so with a preset credit window. If you have a week of vacation, you get a credit value pre-assigned for however many days of vacation you had.
What the ANY command did was leave you with the preassigned value, but not the pre-assigned dates. You still got the same number of vacation days, but they could be anywhere the computer could fit them in.
There was no "move up" process with any of these commands, because they occurred within the original month of the assigned vacation.
I think the last time this came up, the big argument against it was that the ANY command abrogated seniority by giving vacation to someone where they might not have been able to hold, and that it burned a vacation week someone else might have really wanted.
I would counter that by saying that vacation trades between two people do exactly the same thing, and that if you bid and are awarded a vacation week, it should be yours to do as you please. Slides and floats were limited to only 3 days on either side, and the ANY command only worked within the bid month the vacation was assigned.
Nu
02-02-2010, 10:59 AM
#38
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Posts: 5,113
I think the last time this came up, the big argument against it was that the ANY command abrogated seniority by giving vacation to someone where they might not have been able to hold, and that it burned a vacation week someone else might have really wanted.
I would counter that by saying that vacation trades between two people do exactly the same thing, and that if you bid and are awarded a vacation week, it should be yours to do as you please. Slides and floats were limited to only 3 days on either side, and the ANY command only worked within the bid month the vacation was assigned.
Nu
I would counter that by saying that vacation trades between two people do exactly the same thing, and that if you bid and are awarded a vacation week, it should be yours to do as you please. Slides and floats were limited to only 3 days on either side, and the ANY command only worked within the bid month the vacation was assigned.
Nu
In fact, the only conceptual difference between this and trying to tack on days off around a calendar week vacation is not on the ADD side, but in the novelty of being able to SUBTRACT days at one end of the vacation. Maybe I want a bunch of days off from the middle of one week to the middle of the next, but I want to work the second half of week two. This lets me put a rotation on top of my last three days of vacation, and fish for more days off at the front end. Or the other way around, if I prefer. I can whack off the first three days of my vacation. So to speak
.It also doesn't seem like a cost item for the company. In fact, I think anything that is governed by PBS is more efficient for them than something governed by the vacation bid process and constraints.
02-02-2010, 07:01 PM
#40
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: FO forever
Posts: 413
Hi Gnewt,
I believe it's a cultural issue as well. On the Delta side, we always made a big deal of separating Technique from Procedure. If you were training, they'd have several acronyms, or several methods they would "suggest", but not "teach". You could definitely get busted for failing to respect procedure, but not technique. While in general, everyone went along with the instructor or LCA, it hasn't been uncommon to tell them our own little preference where leeway was granted, and they generally don't push it further. Of course, if you do that, you better not screw up a procedure just therafter.
Now, the way it was explained to me, a NW cockpit is run in a far, far more scripted manner. I don't think you make much difference between technique and procedure: I'm told it's pretty much all procedure. When an event occurs, everyone knows exactly what to say, and what to do, down to the syllable. 90% of line operations are like that for us, but I guess we define what we do more in terms of what's not forbidden, which makes it somehwat more flexible.
Before you pronounce this flexibility as being chaotic (not saying you have, but you might), it will be nice to work in the same cockpit. There are reasons we do what we do, and it actually leads to a very effective, professional cockpit. But if you're coming at this from a strictly academic perspective, then I can imagine a number of things don't compute.
I'm a civilian guy, but in a way it sounds like NW was run more like an Air Force unit, Delta more like a Navy unit. Does it sound to you like this describes the philosophical difference correctly?
So, as we start mixing crews, my guess is that North guys will be a little frustrated by a cockpit they don't perceive to be as tight, or as predictable. To us, it's very predictable, and the areas in which we enjoy flexibility, we guard jealously. We're not really looking forward to losing more and more discretion, but we certainly will lose some, in the process of creating cockpits that work for everyone. Since I believe Flight Ops may eventually meet us somewhere in the middle, and that you probably will agree that we want to retain some degree of flexibility, then it's going to take working together, for some time, to find a happy medium.
Time is the key, in my mind, which is why I'm not eager to slice and dice the manuals until crews actually have some experience together, and reach a useful consensus. My preference would be to live together under a set of procedures before we decide what's next, just the same way people recommend you live in a house for a year before you decide how to remodel. I'm not opposed to discussing these things now, because you're concerned about them now, so I'll keep an open mind.
I believe it's a cultural issue as well. On the Delta side, we always made a big deal of separating Technique from Procedure. If you were training, they'd have several acronyms, or several methods they would "suggest", but not "teach". You could definitely get busted for failing to respect procedure, but not technique. While in general, everyone went along with the instructor or LCA, it hasn't been uncommon to tell them our own little preference where leeway was granted, and they generally don't push it further. Of course, if you do that, you better not screw up a procedure just therafter.
Now, the way it was explained to me, a NW cockpit is run in a far, far more scripted manner. I don't think you make much difference between technique and procedure: I'm told it's pretty much all procedure. When an event occurs, everyone knows exactly what to say, and what to do, down to the syllable. 90% of line operations are like that for us, but I guess we define what we do more in terms of what's not forbidden, which makes it somehwat more flexible.
Before you pronounce this flexibility as being chaotic (not saying you have, but you might), it will be nice to work in the same cockpit. There are reasons we do what we do, and it actually leads to a very effective, professional cockpit. But if you're coming at this from a strictly academic perspective, then I can imagine a number of things don't compute.
I'm a civilian guy, but in a way it sounds like NW was run more like an Air Force unit, Delta more like a Navy unit. Does it sound to you like this describes the philosophical difference correctly?
So, as we start mixing crews, my guess is that North guys will be a little frustrated by a cockpit they don't perceive to be as tight, or as predictable. To us, it's very predictable, and the areas in which we enjoy flexibility, we guard jealously. We're not really looking forward to losing more and more discretion, but we certainly will lose some, in the process of creating cockpits that work for everyone. Since I believe Flight Ops may eventually meet us somewhere in the middle, and that you probably will agree that we want to retain some degree of flexibility, then it's going to take working together, for some time, to find a happy medium.
Time is the key, in my mind, which is why I'm not eager to slice and dice the manuals until crews actually have some experience together, and reach a useful consensus. My preference would be to live together under a set of procedures before we decide what's next, just the same way people recommend you live in a house for a year before you decide how to remodel. I'm not opposed to discussing these things now, because you're concerned about them now, so I'll keep an open mind.
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