gasnhaul

Bull,

I can tell you this...since you're a TR don't give that one up. My CC just got furloughed from UAL...been there 12 years.

This much I can tell you, you want to live in domicile. Hopefully you can live in dom for the reserve unit and the airline. Nice thing is most airlines will allow you to take as much mil leave as you need. This is esp. helpful during your first couple of years making $35K or so. That way you can max our your pay and your reserve time and not take such a beating.

I can also tell you I got off of active duty in June of 08. I went to work for a company in the summer...furloughed that Dec. Went to work for another company in Feb. Really disliked the commute and crash pad deal...something about being almost 40 and acting like I'm back in college except making less.

FWIW I always wanted to be an airline pilot. After 6 months I changed my mind and don't plan on going back. To each his own but as the old saying goes "it ain't what it used to be..."

GNH

Moondog

[quote=tsquare;752987]
So you should always have the last word? As an impartial party, you seem like the egoist who is anti-SWA every time. But thats just me talkin'.

Herkulesdrvr

As I said earlier, SWA is the only carrier out there with a bright future in my opinion. Dont get me wrong there are other companies but their business plan doesnt hold water compared to SWA's

buzzpat

The ONLY carrier with a "bright future?" Sounds a little parochial to me. For example, if Bull wants to fly internationally, SWA wouldn't be the "only carrier with a bright future." If Bull wants to see Reno, Birmingham, Orlando and Baltimore for the rest of his life, maybe so.

Then again, the world's largest carrier with more international destinations than any other global airline might not be a bad alternative.

Bull, if you're a reservist, keep it up. The airline gig is a nice profession but it won't, in the end, challenge you all that much. Choose an airline that meets your sweet spot, ie, geography, types of jets, types of trips, etc.

tsquare

This^^^^^^

tsquare

[quote=Moondog;754620]
You don't get it either. I am not anti SWA. I couldn't care less about SWA. I am just sayin' that there are other options out there, and because a particular business model might be top of the heap right now doesn't mean it will be tomorrow. I concede that SWA has been very successful for what they do. But that doesn't mean that Bull should base his career move (necessarily) on the success of a particular company. He should base it on all the other things that we do as airline pilots. Read Buzzpat's post below. So since you've thrown the gauntlet down, I'll give you the egocentric last word.

gasnhaul

[QUOTE=tsquare;754677]Actually I get it

HIFLYR

You have to be kidding! SWA has many competitors for the flying masses while FedEx and UPS only compete against each other. SWA is a good company but the only one with a bright future not a chance.

Herkulesdrvr

Freight is down like 10% this year isnt it? Freight will also be the first to go to a UAV or single pilot, its only a matter of time. I also said there are other companies, just nobody out there in the last 40 years can touch SWA's performance.

Albief15

I've been at FDX now for 8 years. I've also had the chance to help several thousand guys and gals get ready for interviews at a host of carriers, international and domestic. Along the way...watching the careers of those both joining the profession and also advancing in and out of the career, I have a few thoughts (for what they are worth...)

First...trying to time the airline that is "best" is like buying stocks...its easy to "buy high". Folks I helped at "crappy old CAL" after they started hiring again passed up going to SWA or Fedex. A few actually made 737 captain in EWR before things went south there. Granted--pay on that seat might not be any better than a wide FO at UPS, but you do have to chuckle at the irony of a 3 year captain at a legacy when other guys were stuck on the panel at UPS or FDX during that period. On the other hand, some of those lucky "purple nuggets" who went straight to a wide body at FDX are now back as 727 FEs. Even at GOOD companies, things go up and down in cycles. It is hard to nail the pay thing. You have to look at the averages, and take your best shot.

That aside, due dilligence can show you the trends at some companies. FDX, SWA, and UPS have all tended to hire lean and don't furlough. DAL, AAL, and the legacies hire and furlough in waves. Some companies seem to turn the financial corner now and then....DAL, JetBlue, CAL, Alaska seem to turn profit here and there. Other companies seem to have (overall) less stellar results. UPS and FDX make money hand over fist but will still threaten furloughs and cutbacks if they don't like their margins. In short--you cannot nail all the X factors, but you can at least make some educated guesses.

If I were sharing a beer with you, I'd say look at A) long term stability and B) domicile choices as my highest criteria. Pay rates will ebb and flow with contracts, and nobody in 1999 thought SWA and FDX would have better rates than DAL and UAL. However, I am not going to say (especially at DAL) that they may not make some good gains in the future. However, if I was raised in Houston and had a farm there, I might CAL over living in ATL or commuting to SLC or JFK. There are a lot of variables... Best way to view it is career earnings, not first or second year pay. Try to look at where you will be in 5, 10, and 20 years instead of next year or the year after. That said--early upgrades are sexy, and I was anxious to get off the 727 panel at the first chance. I "get" the appeal of the left seat...even if the pay isn't any better than the right one.

Speaking of variables--mergers, age changes, etc offer a host of X factors. I won't belabor age 60, but it hurt me in a lot ways...upgrades, business lost, etc. Mergers can loom too....and even hurt if you leave. A buddy was hired by DAL pre-merger, got scared and bailed for SWA. Life's pretty good to him, and he lives in domicile, but he's bottom 250 and knows if things go south he's in trouble. (hopefully....quite academic and n/a). Had he stayed, he could have flown the 767 at any domicile, held a line, and had a large number behind him. In short--the future looked BAD at DAL, and he bailed, only to find he would have done pretty well. He's not hurting--but he would have been okay in either place. I'm sure in other scenarios guys can be wrong in both cases too. Its a tough game...

There was also some bad gouge here on retirements earlier--FDX has over 400 guys over 60 and the SWA union put out a letter last fall indicating overmanning at SWA in the 400-600 pilot range through 2011 if they don't grow. I'm not the numbers guru, but a good look at airline growth PREDICTIONS and retirement PREDICTIONS might telegraph some options. 2013 will be welcome to a lot of folks, but the actual amount of hiring is yet TBD.

Freight verses Pax? I had the choice of being about 275 at Jetblue or 4200 at FedEx in 2002. Lots of my FDX buddies laugh at me now for even considering JB, but it the chance to get to on the ground floor of a cool place had some real appeal. Now--with flat growth--I wouldn't recommend JB as a career job for you unless things change. However, if you could catch a wave at a legacy or SWA then you'll have to make the choice. I wanted to be a Delta pilot from about age 18 until 36....and was entranced with the romance of non-rev travel and a bunch of great people that I liked there. However, the longer I work at FedEx, the longer I say "thank you God for the June 2001 hiring freeze at DAL..." Freight flying at FDX is so remarkably diverse that you can go months and months not only flying to different places, but flying at different times, with different days on and off and a nice mix of international and domestic. I actually managed to burn myself out on international recently..not easy to do...so I'm back mixing some day and night domestic flying for the next couple months. I also like getting on and off a plane with a minimum of crowd interaction. At the same time, I am a platinum level flying with DAL/NWA and earn a ton of FF miles doing DHs to and from trips, and THOSE miles now get used by my family for travel. My wife is currently doing some work at the Miss America pageant...first class on DAL to/from....and my middle daughter and I will be going to COS to visit the AFA in March or April using those same perks. I am a Delta Skyclub member. So--I can get my "airline jones" fixed traveling on someone else, but enjoy the things I like about freight too.

So all that mess...why even bother? Well...I'll tell you why I did. I am the kid who bugged his parents to drive by the airport since I was a kid. I wanted to be an airline pilot--not a squadron commander, or a fighter pilot, or a general, since I was 5. The military came later--opened my eyes to some awesome opportunity and responsiblity, and made me a better pilot and person. I loved it, but when I looked in a mirror at an O-5 with over 2000 F15 hours I admit I would marvel like looking at a ship in the bottle....how did THAT get in THERE? It was an awesome ride. But it never took the place of the original dream. You have to step back in the military from flying at some point, and I can do this until I am 60 or 65. I also love the taste of coffee at 350 flying across the world looking out the window. In the last year, I've been to China, Australia, Dubai, Brazil, Malaysia, and Korea...all places I missed in military career travels. I made more on my W-2 than I ever did as an officer, but again--it wasn't the money that drove the decision--it was the dream. Another big reason I left active duty was I wanted more control over my time. I probably work more now than I did then, but it is when I want to work, and that makes a difference. I was also able to use that time to develop some businesses outside of work, and those have been very rewarding. I could never have run an interview/sim training business while active duty, and running a stable would also be impossible. As it is, I get to diversify my life into areas BESIDES flying fighters that I enjoyed. It wasn't easy at times--but it worked for us. And that is the most important point to all of this...stay or go...live in domicile or commute...airlines or corporate...pax or freight...there will be ups and downs to any decision. If you are following your heart, and you understand it is YOUR decision, you will be able to accept the consequences.

So...if you do join the airlines, what advice do I offer?

First--stay in the Guard/Reserves. Wanna quit? Taking a pay hit to keep drilling? Don't like the current commander? Want to skip the next deployment? Tough $hit...reread rule one and stay anyway. The Guard makes all things airline better. You can supplement your pay, have a bit of control over your schedule here and there, and have a real good furlough insurance policy. It will also keep your social and professional network more active. I have yet to meet anyone who regrets staying to 20. I stayed to 20 and retired...and regret it. I'm working to get back in as we speak.

2. Diversify your income. I don't expect a captain or major to step out of the military and become an overnight businessman. At the same time, you probably have some skills or contacts valuable to defense contractors or other businesses, and many could use some part time help. You will amaze yourself with some of the talents you probably have hidden.

3. If it fits your family, a working wife can be a good thing. My wife helped run our business, did some courseware development and design, and also managed a grant program for a while from our home office. When the economy started to tank, she was able to use that experience to move right into a director's job at a local college. Now she's using their benefits to get her doctrate--preparing her for the next step up. Honestly--with the changes in our business the last two years she has been the difference that has allowed us to seemlessly press on. It is also nice to know that if--God forbid--the furlough monster had showed up we'd have still been able to have health insurance and other benefits. Granted--not every guy marries superwoman like I did, but I also know behind some great guys and gals are some solid spouses. Living the airline life is a team effort, and having a solid wingman is crucial. My wife, like me, likes having a career and is driven, so we work well together. Some spouses would resent the separation and challenges of the life, so you need to be honest with yourself and each other as you make these choices. What we like about our life now is the AF never let her stay long enough to build her own career. Now--honestly--she is a leader in our community in politics and education and is much better known around here than I am. And after all the years of being "Major Albie's wife..." I think that is way cool for her.

4. Live in domicile, or live at your Guard base area. Your pick. Don't split the difference and double commute. If you can do both in one place--you are one lucky SOB (or DOB if applicable).

5. Work hard. Count your blessings. Its easy to get tired and get grumpy. However, I got to fly F15s, 727s, my Navion in the same week. I did have twice the checkrides and requirements than the guys who only did military or airline flying, but then again I got to see parts of the world my fighter guys didn't and got to still fly single seat when I was sitting sideways at my airline. Hard work--when its your choice--is rewarding. Reminding yourself when you did get a bit overwhelmed at how cool it really is will help keep you smiling.

6. Get involved in your union. Hard for us "team player" guys to understand at times that business is business, and getting involved will keep you informed of the issues you face. If you let "other people" make all the decisions for you--either your company or your union--you may not always like the results. You can't sit on your @ss and let others do all the lifting. Get involved, stay informed, and roll up your sleeves. You may be new, but your energy will offset your ignorance, and you'll get educated fast.

Finally--feel free to PM or call. It probably shows that I made this leap and have loved it, but its not for everyone. Interview consulting is a business, but calling to BS is always free.

Good luck whatever you decide, and thank you for your service.