tsquare

[quote=Herkulesdrvr;751710]
I give up.. you are so spring loaded to defend SWA you can't see thru your own vitriol. It's not ego. That has nothing to do with it. Yes.. the COMPANY has been he best performer, but I was trying to answer a quesion abot the JOB. Just because your company is making lots of money doesn't mean it is the best place to work. What if SWA stops hiring for 10 years (Don't think it can happen, right?).. Wanna be the plug FO for 10 years? Oh, yeah, but he will be making good money sitting reserve in OAK. He MIGHT be able to go to UAL (I won't even use my own airline as an example) and catch a hiring cycle and be a 757 captain in 5 years... but well.. So it seems to me that it is YOU that has the ego problem. Sheeesh

tsquare

didn't steal my thunder at all.. you are just better spoken. Well said.

bull

Thank you all for the replies. For the record, I am an instructor pilot in the Air Force Reserves, working full time as a TR, not AGR. I am hoping to land an airline gig in the next year or two. I was concerned about upgrade time/seniority because I would like to be on the front of a hiring wave and climb the seniority ladder quickly to try and get out of the "danger zone" when furloughs happen (and yes, I realize I am never really safe!). Also, I would rather not stagnate as a copilot for 10 or 12 years, that's just my personal preference. I admit that I don't have a great wealth of knowledge, as I have been in the military the last 10 years...that is why I am here asking questions! Again, thanks to all who posted....

Riddler

Bull,

No one knows. I remember in the 1990s and pre 9-11, everyone wanted to get hired by United, Northwest, Delta. FedEx, UPS, and SWA were considered second tier jobs. In the 1980s, it was PanAm and Eastern. You never know what the economy will do, but the one thing that seems to equalize everything else is your relative seniority. Seniority is everything... pay, schedule, QOL, job security.

SWA has great work rules, good management-labor relations, and it's also been the most stable airline out there. But, I think it's starting to get more like everyone else - no growth, low margins, costs have been creeping up, and they are starting to fly into bigger and more delay prone cities where they will see stiffer competition from legacy RJs. (No, I'm not predicting the demise of SWA). Also, you would be on the downside of the hiring curve, and I'd be willing to bet that today's junior SWA FOs are looking at 10-12 years until upgrade. I'm furloughed from CAL, and believe it or not, I just might upgrade ahead of my buddies who got hired the same time at SWA. Who knows.

Right now, AA has tons of guys on the street, and they're losing a lot of money, so you barely hear anything about them on the forums. There's a lot riding on the future of their alliances (JAL, BA). However, they are also one of the most senior airlines out there... when they start retiring, they will be retiring upwards of 350-700 captains per year. So right now, they suck. But if you got hired at the leading edge of a hiring spree (probably not for another 3-5 years), then you would likely see very rapid seniority improvements.

So when comparing airlines, you really need to try and look at the big picture. More seniority at a somewhat struggling airline might be preferable to stagnated seniority at a financially stronger carrier (assuming both carriers survive until your retirement!).

Swedish Blender

Being a senior copilot does have it's advantages (schedules) not that I would know.

Looking at today's stats on APC:
10 yr DL = MD88 captain - 126k guarantee
10 yr CAL = SN captain - 127k guarantee
10 yr SWA = captain - 188k guarantee
10 yr UPS = FO - 157k guarantee

Herkulesdrvr

[quote=tsquare;751821]Sorry for getting your panties tied in a bunch.

Widow's Son

Here's a couple of things to think about.

1. FedEx and UPS are currently much more overmanned than SWA is which means that SWA should start hiring sooner.

2. SWA has always hired older guys as well as young guys. The average new hire age has been consistently been about 38. Two guys in my newhire class were in their 50's. SWA has a lot of guys approaching retirement when retirement resumes.

3. SWA has much more territory left to conquer than does FedEx. It still has significant room left in domestic and near and far international are eventually going to happen. There aren't many places left that FedEx doesn't already do.

4. Eventually, all aircraft will be flown from the ground with a cheap single data systems guy in the airplane, but that eventuality will happen a decade or two earlier for freight than for pax airlines. Something for younger guys to think about. Both Boeing and Airbus have people working on large UAV's and according to a friend at Boeing, they are informally referred to as "Atari freighters".

Jetjok

OK then. No problem. I'm sure that you'll be put right on the top of the list by every airline, by virtue of your concerns and desires. Seriously, you and every other swinging richard out there is looking for exactly the same thing, and truth be told, everyone currently employed started out with the same concerns and desires. However, as someone said earlier, the only way to tell if you've chosen wisely, is to look at your aviation career at the end of it, not the beginning. I've flown for Pan Am, UPS and finally FedEx, each had their really good parts and their really bad parts.

Before you decide to go into people carrying or freight dogging, take a good look at your personality and decide if you'd be happier doing one or the other. For me, I really didn't like carrying people around, and that was back at a time when people looked at flying as a great adventure and dressed and acted accordingly. Today, you're lucky when you have a flight that doesn't involve some sort of "issue" in the back, be it a unruly passenger or a problem with the hired help (F/A's). As well, I'm not all that keen about having to deal with long lines and TSA agents each and every day.

Conversely, flying freight, at night, into and out of some small and/or very challenging airport, on less than adequate rest, can make for a long, draining career.

As for the Southwest/Delta or UPS/FedEx argument, personally I have really enjoyed, over my career, switching aircraft every 5 or 6 years. I liked the different locations that each jet went to, as well as the pay increases that went along with the differing aircraft and seat movement. For me, I don't think I'd be happy looking at a 30 year career, where the jet I just learned, as a new hire, will be the same jet that I'll retire from at the end of my career. Diversity in aircraft, as in women, is a good thing.

So in conclusion, with all the information that guys have provided you here, undoubtedly your decision will be an easy one. You will, like the vast majority of other guys, hire on to the first airline that will offer you a job. If you're lucky enough to get multiple offers at the same time, then choose wisely, or failing that, choose as best as you can.

JJ

OrionTanker

Jetjok brings up a great point. Airlines do hire on personality. I was a member of a large Air Force Reserve squadron. You could line up everyone just on their personality alone, and match them to their respective airline.

Which leads me to my next point, you must pass the interview. You must do your research. You could be the greatest person in the world, but no research, means no job. I was interviewing for SWA, and another applicant was asking about the "Wright Amendment" during the interview. He did not know what it was. He did not get hired. We have had applicants that have an ego, imagine that!!! They never made to headquarters for the interview.

Bull and anyone else - GOOD LUCK !!!

tsquare

[quote=Herkulesdrvr;752051]Just couldn't let it die could you? It's like arguing with a 12 year old.