Republic Seniority
01-15-2010, 10:46 AM
#261
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: retired
Posts: 992
with this being the case though it would refute MD80's assertion that career expectations at YX were for nothing less than a 717 or 318. 170's and 190's was exactly what you were expecting.
again i reiterate my feelings, that YX mgmt had no intention of YX pilots flying an Embraer. they went into "negotiations" with RAH pay scales and contract in hand and were accepting nothing more since they knew if they didn't come to terms it would be RAH doing the flying anyway. kinda like the way the FAA negotiates with NATCA. knowing that at the end of the day the governments last best offer is what you get anyway there isnt a whole lot of incentive for mgmt to give anything.
again i reiterate my feelings, that YX mgmt had no intention of YX pilots flying an Embraer. they went into "negotiations" with RAH pay scales and contract in hand and were accepting nothing more since they knew if they didn't come to terms it would be RAH doing the flying anyway. kinda like the way the FAA negotiates with NATCA. knowing that at the end of the day the governments last best offer is what you get anyway there isnt a whole lot of incentive for mgmt to give anything.
01-17-2010, 08:45 AM
#262
Line Holder
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 30
What a thread...there's 2 hours I will never get back. I think that the SLI is becoming a moot point.RAH will drop the Midwest brand name, because they will not be able to make it work.SWA and Airtran will bury them in MKE.
I have a few buddies that opted to take a RAH position in MX and they are astounded on how mickey mouse the operation is.
Just listening to the RAH pilots on this board is a telling tale.Most are scared to death of management...yet come to BB defense at the drop of the hat.I don't think I want to be involved in a workplace where Stockholm Syndrome is the norm...
I just hope the YX guys get some training slots, as the furloughs/downgrades that will be starting soon, create some movement in time for the remedy clause of the arbitration findings.
As for Bedford, he may be a good business man, but a hypocrite of epic proportions.He has deceived all partied involved....I don't trust him farther than I could throw him, and believe me I could throw him a long ways right now.....
I have a few buddies that opted to take a RAH position in MX and they are astounded on how mickey mouse the operation is.
Just listening to the RAH pilots on this board is a telling tale.Most are scared to death of management...yet come to BB defense at the drop of the hat.I don't think I want to be involved in a workplace where Stockholm Syndrome is the norm...
I just hope the YX guys get some training slots, as the furloughs/downgrades that will be starting soon, create some movement in time for the remedy clause of the arbitration findings.
As for Bedford, he may be a good business man, but a hypocrite of epic proportions.He has deceived all partied involved....I don't trust him farther than I could throw him, and believe me I could throw him a long ways right now.....
Last edited by IC ALL; 01-17-2010 at 08:53 AM. Reason: tos
01-17-2010, 05:21 PM
#264
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 798
Here's BB's thoughts on buying into Midwest and Frontier.
"It was a sobering experience for us to pull aircraft out of the partnership operation," Bedford recalls. "At some point, the [regional business] model is just going to start to become a melting ice cube." For that reason he began to take a serious look at other options, including branded flying. But he was certain he would not go down the rocky path trod by ExpressJet, which ended its branded flying experience in September 2008 not long after it was launched, and the overly ambitious Atlantic Coast Airlines, a regional that tried and failed to transform itself into a low-fare airline. Renamed Independence Air, it burned through millions of dollars before shutting down in January 2006.
"We are not starting from scratch," he says, referring to Frontier and Midwest. "We are buying companies that have been in business for 15 and 25 years. They have multiple members in their frequent-flyer programs and deep loyalty in their core markets. We aren't building anything. Hopefully, we can make it better and more economical. It's a comfort to have a place to put aircraft."
“The fact is there are just too many small jets out there for the market need,” continued Bedford. “And of course that creates margin compression and an exercise in stealing share; those are just the conditions we live in. The Republic plan has been to de-emphasize the smaller jets in favor of the larger-capacity E-Jets, and as market conditions change–hopefully the economy stabilizes in 2010; maybe we start seeing some growth in 2011, and we’re going to be prepared to contest heavily for that business.”
The truth is Frontier and Midwest saved your azzes at Republic. So get off your high horse and agree on a "FAIR and EQUITABLE" integration.
"It was a sobering experience for us to pull aircraft out of the partnership operation," Bedford recalls. "At some point, the [regional business] model is just going to start to become a melting ice cube." For that reason he began to take a serious look at other options, including branded flying. But he was certain he would not go down the rocky path trod by ExpressJet, which ended its branded flying experience in September 2008 not long after it was launched, and the overly ambitious Atlantic Coast Airlines, a regional that tried and failed to transform itself into a low-fare airline. Renamed Independence Air, it burned through millions of dollars before shutting down in January 2006.
"We are not starting from scratch," he says, referring to Frontier and Midwest. "We are buying companies that have been in business for 15 and 25 years. They have multiple members in their frequent-flyer programs and deep loyalty in their core markets. We aren't building anything. Hopefully, we can make it better and more economical. It's a comfort to have a place to put aircraft."
“The fact is there are just too many small jets out there for the market need,” continued Bedford. “And of course that creates margin compression and an exercise in stealing share; those are just the conditions we live in. The Republic plan has been to de-emphasize the smaller jets in favor of the larger-capacity E-Jets, and as market conditions change–hopefully the economy stabilizes in 2010; maybe we start seeing some growth in 2011, and we’re going to be prepared to contest heavily for that business.”
The truth is Frontier and Midwest saved your azzes at Republic. So get off your high horse and agree on a "FAIR and EQUITABLE" integration.
01-17-2010, 08:03 PM
#265
Che Guevara
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Posts: 6,408
There were 16 717s on property that were scheduled to be forfeited back to Boeing at a predetermined time before RAH ever became part of the equation. I believe it was this management mixup that brought RAH into the picture in the first place.
01-17-2010, 08:20 PM
#266
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 61
Here's BB's thoughts on buying into Midwest and Frontier.
"It was a sobering experience for us to pull aircraft out of the partnership operation," Bedford recalls. "At some point, the [regional business] model is just going to start to become a melting ice cube." For that reason he began to take a serious look at other options, including branded flying. But he was certain he would not go down the rocky path trod by ExpressJet, which ended its branded flying experience in September 2008 not long after it was launched, and the overly ambitious Atlantic Coast Airlines, a regional that tried and failed to transform itself into a low-fare airline. Renamed Independence Air, it burned through millions of dollars before shutting down in January 2006.
"We are not starting from scratch," he says, referring to Frontier and Midwest. "We are buying companies that have been in business for 15 and 25 years. They have multiple members in their frequent-flyer programs and deep loyalty in their core markets. We aren't building anything. Hopefully, we can make it better and more economical. It's a comfort to have a place to put aircraft."
“The fact is there are just too many small jets out there for the market need,” continued Bedford. “And of course that creates margin compression and an exercise in stealing share; those are just the conditions we live in. The Republic plan has been to de-emphasize the smaller jets in favor of the larger-capacity E-Jets, and as market conditions change–hopefully the economy stabilizes in 2010; maybe we start seeing some growth in 2011, and we’re going to be prepared to contest heavily for that business.”
The truth is Frontier and Midwest saved your azzes at Republic. So get off your high horse and agree on a "FAIR and EQUITABLE" integration.
"It was a sobering experience for us to pull aircraft out of the partnership operation," Bedford recalls. "At some point, the [regional business] model is just going to start to become a melting ice cube." For that reason he began to take a serious look at other options, including branded flying. But he was certain he would not go down the rocky path trod by ExpressJet, which ended its branded flying experience in September 2008 not long after it was launched, and the overly ambitious Atlantic Coast Airlines, a regional that tried and failed to transform itself into a low-fare airline. Renamed Independence Air, it burned through millions of dollars before shutting down in January 2006.
"We are not starting from scratch," he says, referring to Frontier and Midwest. "We are buying companies that have been in business for 15 and 25 years. They have multiple members in their frequent-flyer programs and deep loyalty in their core markets. We aren't building anything. Hopefully, we can make it better and more economical. It's a comfort to have a place to put aircraft."
“The fact is there are just too many small jets out there for the market need,” continued Bedford. “And of course that creates margin compression and an exercise in stealing share; those are just the conditions we live in. The Republic plan has been to de-emphasize the smaller jets in favor of the larger-capacity E-Jets, and as market conditions change–hopefully the economy stabilizes in 2010; maybe we start seeing some growth in 2011, and we’re going to be prepared to contest heavily for that business.”
The truth is Frontier and Midwest saved your azzes at Republic. So get off your high horse and agree on a "FAIR and EQUITABLE" integration.
Lets first determine the career expectations for RAH pilots. It would be fair to say that a 15+ yr pilot for RAH is perfectly satisfied with his/her working conditions. They bid the schedule they want, they make 6 figures perhaps, they are home on weekends and what not. So we'll assume that their career expectations are to be a RAH Lifer. Nothing wrong with that. Now should a Midwest 7 yr FO be place above said capt on the senority list as some have suggested merely because they worked at a traditional "mainline" carrier? I think not. So here's what we do. Follow me here, we take the top 20% capts from each carrier and merge them by date of hire. the next 30% we merge by senority but by dividing any YX pilots senority by 1.5, and merging that new date of hire. Depending on the longevity of F9 pilots we should merge that percentile according to actual hire date. This should allow for senior RAH lifers and senior YX and F9 folks to have an equal playing field, while giving the slight advantage to the waaay senior guys, I imagine at YX. The bottom 50% of all captains should be merged in this order. Senority date divided by 2.5 for remaining YX captains, and senority date divided by 1.5 for Frontier captains. The reason for this is simple. The advantage on this half of the list would go to the RAH captains, simply because most of this portion of the list would be on the non branded side I imagine. The expectations for RAH pilots were always to fly these aircraft anyway, so their really wouldnt be much of a difference to begin with. Should this call for F9 Captains to be downgraded to smaller aircraft (in that YX pilots are now in the Airbus and 190) they would still be fairly compensated. (I think)
OOOOK. Isnt this exciting, we've intergrated the captains.
Next we intergrate the First Officers. This is going to be a tough one because of the vast difference in senority for YX pilots and F9 pilots when compared to the RAH pilots. The top 30% of FOs should be intergrated by DOH. This will allow YX FOs to move into the Airbus, and allow F9 FOs to stay put, while giving an opportunity for long lasting RAH FOs to upgrade to a larger aircraft. Now here's where it just gets sticky. The next 50% should be intergrated by DOH YX and F9/1.5. Some are asking why divide senority by 1.5? The answer is simple. It is in this percentile that one wants the DOH to be relatively competitive so as not to give the impression of a pure staple. That next. The bottom 20% should be DOH only. Which may look like a RAH pilots worst nightmare but it has to be done. We'll make up for that with the next part.
Furloughs
All YX/F9 furloughs should be called back after RAH pilots, simply because RAH is the controlling entity.
I have single handedly done what many cannot do. I have merged a regional airline with two national carriers. *bows* thank you all.
01-17-2010, 08:37 PM
#267
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 5,026
MD80, you should go into politics because that was spin if I ever saw it. And I have to admit one almost cant argue with that logic. But I think from the looks of things, "fair and equitable" isnt really whats in question. Its what both sides deem to be fair that is the issue. I agree with you, both RAH and Midwest/Frontier benefited from this conglomeration. The question is how do we translate benefits into one senority list. I have the solution ladies and gentlemen...
Lets first determine the career expectations for RAH pilots. It would be fair to say that a 15+ yr pilot for RAH is perfectly satisfied with his/her working conditions. They bid the schedule they want, they make 6 figures perhaps, they are home on weekends and what not. So we'll assume that their career expectations are to be a RAH Lifer. Nothing wrong with that. Now should a Midwest 7 yr FO be place above said capt on the senority list as some have suggested merely because they worked at a traditional "mainline" carrier? I think not. So here's what we do. Follow me here, we take the top 20% capts from each carrier and merge them by date of hire. the next 30% we merge by senority but by dividing any YX pilots senority by 1.5, and merging that new date of hire. Depending on the longevity of F9 pilots we should merge that percentile according to actual hire date. This should allow for senior RAH lifers and senior YX and F9 folks to have an equal playing field, while giving the slight advantage to the waaay senior guys, I imagine at YX. The bottom 50% of all captains should be merged in this order. Senority date divided by 2.5 for remaining YX captains, and senority date divided by 1.5 for Frontier captains. The reason for this is simple. The advantage on this half of the list would go to the RAH captains, simply because most of this portion of the list would be on the non branded side I imagine. The expectations for RAH pilots were always to fly these aircraft anyway, so their really wouldnt be much of a difference to begin with. Should this call for F9 Captains to be downgraded to smaller aircraft (in that YX pilots are now in the Airbus and 190) they would still be fairly compensated. (I think)
OOOOK. Isnt this exciting, we've intergrated the captains.
Next we intergrate the First Officers. This is going to be a tough one because of the vast difference in senority for YX pilots and F9 pilots when compared to the RAH pilots. The top 30% of FOs should be intergrated by DOH. This will allow YX FOs to move into the Airbus, and allow F9 FOs to stay put, while giving an opportunity for long lasting RAH FOs to upgrade to a larger aircraft. Now here's where it just gets sticky. The next 50% should be intergrated by DOH YX and F9/1.5. Some are asking why divide senority by 1.5? The answer is simple. It is in this percentile that one wants the DOH to be relatively competitive so as not to give the impression of a pure staple. That next. The bottom 20% should be DOH only. Which may look like a RAH pilots worst nightmare but it has to be done. We'll make up for that with the next part.
Furloughs
All YX/F9 furloughs should be called back after RAH pilots, simply because RAH is the controlling entity.
I have single handedly done what many cannot do. I have merged a regional airline with two national carriers. *bows* thank you all.
Lets first determine the career expectations for RAH pilots. It would be fair to say that a 15+ yr pilot for RAH is perfectly satisfied with his/her working conditions. They bid the schedule they want, they make 6 figures perhaps, they are home on weekends and what not. So we'll assume that their career expectations are to be a RAH Lifer. Nothing wrong with that. Now should a Midwest 7 yr FO be place above said capt on the senority list as some have suggested merely because they worked at a traditional "mainline" carrier? I think not. So here's what we do. Follow me here, we take the top 20% capts from each carrier and merge them by date of hire. the next 30% we merge by senority but by dividing any YX pilots senority by 1.5, and merging that new date of hire. Depending on the longevity of F9 pilots we should merge that percentile according to actual hire date. This should allow for senior RAH lifers and senior YX and F9 folks to have an equal playing field, while giving the slight advantage to the waaay senior guys, I imagine at YX. The bottom 50% of all captains should be merged in this order. Senority date divided by 2.5 for remaining YX captains, and senority date divided by 1.5 for Frontier captains. The reason for this is simple. The advantage on this half of the list would go to the RAH captains, simply because most of this portion of the list would be on the non branded side I imagine. The expectations for RAH pilots were always to fly these aircraft anyway, so their really wouldnt be much of a difference to begin with. Should this call for F9 Captains to be downgraded to smaller aircraft (in that YX pilots are now in the Airbus and 190) they would still be fairly compensated. (I think)
OOOOK. Isnt this exciting, we've intergrated the captains.
Next we intergrate the First Officers. This is going to be a tough one because of the vast difference in senority for YX pilots and F9 pilots when compared to the RAH pilots. The top 30% of FOs should be intergrated by DOH. This will allow YX FOs to move into the Airbus, and allow F9 FOs to stay put, while giving an opportunity for long lasting RAH FOs to upgrade to a larger aircraft. Now here's where it just gets sticky. The next 50% should be intergrated by DOH YX and F9/1.5. Some are asking why divide senority by 1.5? The answer is simple. It is in this percentile that one wants the DOH to be relatively competitive so as not to give the impression of a pure staple. That next. The bottom 20% should be DOH only. Which may look like a RAH pilots worst nightmare but it has to be done. We'll make up for that with the next part.
Furloughs
All YX/F9 furloughs should be called back after RAH pilots, simply because RAH is the controlling entity.
I have single handedly done what many cannot do. I have merged a regional airline with two national carriers. *bows* thank you all.
01-17-2010, 08:57 PM
#268
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 2,919
don't forget that FO's can't move airplanes here.
So if a furloughed YX pilot is recalled to a 170...there's no going to a airbus as a FO.
And staple is stupid....will never happen. I'd venture a guess to say there's a lot more "lifers" at RAH then you'd think. Their QOL shouldn't be compromised cause some ****ed off YX and F9 people think they're better than everyone else cause their plane is bigger.
I don't know what's fair or what's equitable....that's why I'm not negotiating it....I fully expect to get screwed so at least I won't be surprised.
So if a furloughed YX pilot is recalled to a 170...there's no going to a airbus as a FO.
And staple is stupid....will never happen. I'd venture a guess to say there's a lot more "lifers" at RAH then you'd think. Their QOL shouldn't be compromised cause some ****ed off YX and F9 people think they're better than everyone else cause their plane is bigger.
I don't know what's fair or what's equitable....that's why I'm not negotiating it....I fully expect to get screwed so at least I won't be surprised.
01-17-2010, 09:53 PM
#269
Line Holder
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 61
Nice job. Your theory screws the Midwest guys big time. There were Midwest first officers making $101/hour. That's only 2.72 times more than what a Republic first tops out at and almost $40/hour more than some of the Republic captains. Let's merge them in with the $37/hour first officers (sarcasm). After all, they are all first officers. The fair way to merge the lists is ratio the Midwest/Frontier pilots, then staple the current Republic list below that. There. I have single handily created a fair list in less words that you also. I have put the pilots in career positions above the pilots in stepping stone positions.
01-17-2010, 10:16 PM
#270
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 114
IMHO,
Your SLI proposal would be funny, except that I don't think you were trying to be funny. You just outlined what could be the greatest "windfall" in airline history for the RAH guys. Looks like the F9 guys would give up the most and the YX guys wouldn't get nearly as much as the already lost.
In any case, if something so absurd were handed down by the arbitrator, you could have my Captain seat as well. I won't stick around to be part of that circus.
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