Aloha

Gents,
This month I have been flying with a guy who is very much into the politics of the airlines. He is one of those self-proclaimed experts, who just won’t shut up. He has been discussing at length, his opinions of the whole F9-SWA-Republic thing. I would like to be able to speak with him intellectually on this subject, yet I am relatively uninformed. (I just fly my line, go home, and go fishing.) I am looking for a mature discussion, giving both sides of the argument, with and without the aid of hindsight – in the hopes that I can give some viewpoints from the people who have an intelligent dog in this fight.

My question is this: Did the F9 union make the correct decision for its members by not accepting the SWA staple offer? Are they better off now? Will the F9 pilots be better off with Republic in the future?

This is a tough question. I would love to become a little smarter on this matter and argue an intelligent position, and beat this guy at his own game.

Lastly, I am new to this forum. I am not looking to get (flames?) from anyone. Thank you again for taking the time to give your opinion.

Respectfully from the new guy,
Aloha

Flyby1206

You are already the smarter one in the argument and have things figured out. Fishing is much more important than F9 or SWA staple!


A case can be made from either side, what side do you want to argue (against him)?

Airhoss

Only time will tell..But if I were a betting man I'd say long term F-9 is screwed under RAH.

FAULTPUSH

By my estimation, at the time of the rejection of RAH's offer, about 99% of the Frontier pilots preferred the RAH offer over what SWA had offered (i.e. staple). If SWA had come up with something equitable (according to integration precedents), which is to say something between date of hire integration and a percentage integration, with domicile protection, I think that probably 80-90% of the pilots would have preferred to go with Southwest. That all may be moot though, because I don't think that F9's union could have legally accepted ANY offer from SWA without a membership vote.

The most recent rumor I've heard is that the best that SWA would have been willing to offer, if negotiations had progressed, would have been DOH for longevity, and 1/2 of DOH (F9 longevity) for seniority. This would have put F9's most senior captains, who typically hold turn lines and only work 2-3 days a week, as moderately senior FO's. It would have resulted in hundreds of upgrade on the SWA side, and hundreds of downgrades on the F9 side. This is clearly contraindicated by the rules of equitable integrations, which state that there should not be a windfall for one group, at the expense of the other.

Historically, equipment size is the primary determining factor in how two seniority lists get merged. This is due to the fact that relative differences in pay scales between airlines are rather ephemeral (remember the grief that SWA pilots were getting back in 2000 for their industry-lagging pay), but relative seniority according to equipment is a fairly stable metric for seniority. Another rule of equitable integrations is the principle of trying to maintain seat position for as many pilots as possible. By these principles, any fair and equitable integration would have maintained the F9 pilots in approximately the same seniority position and seat. Every F9 pilot that I've talked to would have been perfectly happy to go to arbitration on the integration, while I would be that most SWA pilots would not have. That says something in and of itself.

Another downside of the SWA offer was that in addition to the 60+ pilots on furlough, several dozen more would have not been "bought" in the transaction, and would have been out of work, and SWA was rumored to not be willing to guarantee those pilots a seniority number. To its credit, FAPA didn't throw the junior guys under the bus, as often happens in situations like this.

Two important factors for me personally (call me sentimental) were the other 4000 F9 employees that would have lost their jobs, and the fact that Denver would have lost a great airline and brand.

As for whether we are better off now, I'd say that at the very least, the few pilots who are being recalled are better off, as are the dozens who would have been laid off after SWA parked 10 Airbuses. Beyond that, I'd say that it will take about 5-10 years to answer that one accurately, if we're lucky. I've only flown with 1 pilot in the last 3 months who was disappointed with the way things turned out.

Personally, my biggest concern is that historical precedent places furloughed pilots at the bottom of all the employed pilots. If that holds in this case, that puts the furloughed F9 pilots below everyone at RAH. However, every seniority integration precedent has been more or less a marriage of equals, where the furloughed pilots expected to be recalled into similar equipment to what was was junior when they were furloughed. That's obviously not the case here.

The whole process will probably wrap up by the end of summer, and then we'll see what the arbitrators deem fair and equitable.

alvrb211

So, get educated.

Read Ethics and Stakeholder Management by Archie B. Carroll and Anne K Buchholtz and draw your own educated conclusion.

AL

Flyby1206

Just some random thoughts, I'm sure others will chime in

Pro SWA:
SWA has never furloughed, been profitable almost every quarter in the past decade, largest carrier of domestic passengers in the US, one of the best financial balance sheets of any airline, greatest company culture/management, always one of the top places to work in the country (not just against airlines), great payscale/benefits

Con SWA:
SWA would have closed the DEN base and pilots there would have to commute. Airbuses (Airbii?) would have been retired, Lynx (the Q400 regional subsidiary of F9) would have been sold off or somehow eliminated, staple to the bottom of the SWA list means crappy QOL, being purchased means F9 brand dies.

Pro Republic:
Up and comer airline with a super low cost structure trying to get into the low cost carrier game. Ambitious management, F9 will be one of the flagship pieces of the Republic company. DEN will remain a fortress hub, F9 employees will retain their jobs, opportunities for expansion and new crew bases, F9 has been a thorn in the side of SWA in DEN and could be a real threat in the future to SWA and the rest of the LCCs in general.

Con Republic:
Super low costs are going to be a priority, payscales in danger. Keeping F9 seniority list separate opens the threat of whipsaw using the other Republic pilots against the F9 pilots for concessions, seniority list integration could be very ugly. Unproven leadership in a very tough economic time. Growth might force junior pilots to commute to new bases.

FAULTPUSH

An excellent, comprehensive, and unbiased summary (and much more concise than my post).

youngairliner

I don't think there is any right answer, depends where you sit on the list. Good news is we had an F9 Jumpseater on our SWA jet yesterday and we chatted for a couple of minutes and everyone was nice and there was no animosity. My father in law (former continental guy who struck and ended up at US Air many years later) told me I will know if I made the right decision when I retire. Things change daily, and although SWA might have been the place to go a few years ago, 10 years from now could be a different story. I think we all just want to keep a job at this point.

KC10 FATboy

The big question is ... WHO CARES? You can't change what has been decided and you'll never know if someone would have had it better.

I would suggest you stick with fishing. And if you have to fly with that bozo again, you change the subject to something more intelluctually appealing.

yamahas3

Personally, even if I were the #1 guy on Frontier's list, I would rather be a bottom reserve FO at Southwest than a senior captain at Republic after this all shakes out.

Also with this whole talk of using the C-series as a "replacement" for the Airbuses, you can be sure Republic doesn't intend on keeping Frontier in their current form. Guarenteed Republic has one plan in mind, and that involves every pilot on property being paid RJ wages with RJ work rules.

Couple that with the fact that in 5 years, Southwest will still most likely exist. The same probably can't be said about Republic. With that said, I'd rather be furloughed from Southwest than the #1 guy on Republic's list right now.