Swa 1844 Bhm-phx 12/13
03-20-2010, 09:39 AM
#61
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
I think this ordeal has hurt some LUV lovers feelings. 
SWA isn't perfect, just like any other airline. No one wants to take responsibilty these days. Good on you I Love Lamp. It's nice to see someone held accountable.
SWA isn't perfect, just like any other airline. No one wants to take responsibilty these days. Good on you I Love Lamp. It's nice to see someone held accountable.
03-20-2010, 11:32 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: FO
Posts: 179
Although I don't think it is necessarily right for SWA not to offer some compensation, there are some points that I think were left out.
In the SWA's Contract of Carriage, it reads (and to paraphrase) that those entilted to the Contract of Carriage are those that have purchased a valid ticket and fare from an authorized source. The fares are those published through several systems listed and ZED, non-rev, or pass agreement fares are not included. The Contract does differentiate between paying customers and non-revs because it lists how your entitlement to travel is obtained (Article 15). Since you were on a ZED, you wouldn't fall under the Contract of Carriage and you assume the responsibility of travel. You are then not entitled to the benefits afforded by purchasing a ticket. In essence, a ZED fare does not create a contract between you and the airline, whereas a valid purchased ticket does.
Regardless of above, the other argument is when does the contract of carriage for luggage end. The Contract says the airline is only responsible for the luggage when it is in the custody of the carrier. When does that end? SWA could say it is when it comes out of the carousel. You might say it is when you take possesion. SWA has to turn the bag over to the TSA for a short time, so the custody cannot be clearly defined as between you giving the bag to the representative and you having positive possesion at the end destination. Did SWA appear at the small claims hearing? If they did, then the Judge appears to have defined in this case that SWA was responsible until the bag was in your possesion. If SWA didn't have a representative and the judgement was in default, then I'm not so sure they would have ruled that way.
Either way, it isn't a good situation.
In the SWA's Contract of Carriage, it reads (and to paraphrase) that those entilted to the Contract of Carriage are those that have purchased a valid ticket and fare from an authorized source. The fares are those published through several systems listed and ZED, non-rev, or pass agreement fares are not included. The Contract does differentiate between paying customers and non-revs because it lists how your entitlement to travel is obtained (Article 15). Since you were on a ZED, you wouldn't fall under the Contract of Carriage and you assume the responsibility of travel. You are then not entitled to the benefits afforded by purchasing a ticket. In essence, a ZED fare does not create a contract between you and the airline, whereas a valid purchased ticket does.
Regardless of above, the other argument is when does the contract of carriage for luggage end. The Contract says the airline is only responsible for the luggage when it is in the custody of the carrier. When does that end? SWA could say it is when it comes out of the carousel. You might say it is when you take possesion. SWA has to turn the bag over to the TSA for a short time, so the custody cannot be clearly defined as between you giving the bag to the representative and you having positive possesion at the end destination. Did SWA appear at the small claims hearing? If they did, then the Judge appears to have defined in this case that SWA was responsible until the bag was in your possesion. If SWA didn't have a representative and the judgement was in default, then I'm not so sure they would have ruled that way.
Either way, it isn't a good situation.
03-20-2010, 11:42 AM
#63
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Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: EMB-145 furloughee
Posts: 63
Although I don't think it is necessarily right for SWA not to offer some compensation, there are some points that I think were left out.
If you read SWA's Contract of Carriage which I'm sure you have, it reads (and to paraphrase) that those entilted to the Contract of Carriage are those that have purchased a valid ticket and fare from an authorized source. The fares are those published through several systems listed and ZED, non-rev, or pass agreement fares are not included. Since you were on a ZED, you wouldn't fall under the Contract of Carriage and you assume the responsibility of travel. You are then not entitled to the benefits afforded by purchasing a ticket. In essence, a ZED fare does not create a contract between you and the airline, whereas a valid purchased ticket does.
If you read SWA's Contract of Carriage which I'm sure you have, it reads (and to paraphrase) that those entilted to the Contract of Carriage are those that have purchased a valid ticket and fare from an authorized source. The fares are those published through several systems listed and ZED, non-rev, or pass agreement fares are not included. Since you were on a ZED, you wouldn't fall under the Contract of Carriage and you assume the responsibility of travel. You are then not entitled to the benefits afforded by purchasing a ticket. In essence, a ZED fare does not create a contract between you and the airline, whereas a valid purchased ticket does.
Regardless of above, the other argument is when does the contract of carriage for luggage end. The Contract says the airline is only responsible for the luggage when it is in the custody of the carrier. When does that end? SWA could say it is when it comes out of the carousel. You might say it is when you take possesion. SWA has to turn the bag over to the TSA for a short time, so the custody cannot be clearly defined as between you giving the bag to the representative and you having positive possesion at the end destination. Did SWA appear at the small claims hearing? If they did, then the Judge appears to have defined in this case that SWA was responsible until the bag was in your possesion. If SWA didn't have a representative and the judgement was in default, then I'm not so sure they would have ruled that way.
Either way, it isn't a good situation.
Either way, it isn't a good situation.
03-20-2010, 12:04 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: FO
Posts: 179
A. No person shall be entitled to transportation except upon presentation of a valid ticket or proof of identification acceptable to Carrier that transportation has been purchased through Carrier’s electronic ticketing or Ticketless Travel systems or through the reservations or electronic ticketing systems of a another airline or agent authorized to sell transportation on Carrier under a codeshare agreement. Such ticket/electronic ticketing documentation shall entitle the person to transportation only between the points of origin and destination.
B. Fares are published in Carrier’s reservations system and may be obtained from a Southwest Airlines Reservations Sales Agent by telephone at 1-800-435-9792 (1-800-I-FLY-SWA), en Español at 1-800-826-6667 (1-800-VAMONOS), from Mexico (Border Cities) at 001-800-435-9792 (English) or 001-800-826-6667 (en Español), and through TTY service at 1-800-533-1305; on Carrier’s Internet site at southwest.com; or through an authorized travel agent. Some travel agencies, however, may impose an additional charge for this service.
I almost certain that the SWA Res system does not contain ZED fares; those are obtained through an employees airline or the SWA Pass Department. The case is settled, so it is done and over with. There are too many open ended arguments to ever say that it is clear cut on what someone is entitled to when flying on anything other than a ticket purchased through SWA.
03-20-2010, 03:15 PM
#66
seeing the large hubs...
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: 73N A
Posts: 3,745
15. Tickets – General (Issued Apr. 25, 2007; Effective Apr. 25, 2007)
A. No person shall be entitled to transportation except upon presentation of a valid ticket or proof of identification acceptable to Carrier that transportation has been purchased through Carrier’s electronic ticketing or Ticketless Travel systems or through the reservations or electronic ticketing systems of a another airline or agent authorized to sell transportation on Carrier under a codeshare agreement. Such ticket/electronic ticketing documentation shall entitle the person to transportation only between the points of origin and destination.
I almost certain that the SWA Res system does not contain ZED fares; those are obtained through an employees airline or the SWA Pass Department. The case is settled, so it is done and over with. There are too many open ended arguments to ever say that it is clear cut on what someone is entitled to when flying on anything other than a ticket purchased through SWA.
A. No person shall be entitled to transportation except upon presentation of a valid ticket or proof of identification acceptable to Carrier that transportation has been purchased through Carrier’s electronic ticketing or Ticketless Travel systems or through the reservations or electronic ticketing systems of a another airline or agent authorized to sell transportation on Carrier under a codeshare agreement. Such ticket/electronic ticketing documentation shall entitle the person to transportation only between the points of origin and destination.
I almost certain that the SWA Res system does not contain ZED fares; those are obtained through an employees airline or the SWA Pass Department. The case is settled, so it is done and over with. There are too many open ended arguments to ever say that it is clear cut on what someone is entitled to when flying on anything other than a ticket purchased through SWA.
03-20-2010, 03:34 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: CA
Posts: 1,207
Not to pick a fight either. Just a mature polite debate, so don't think I'm trying to make any personal attacks towards you. I have nothing but respect 
Well, okay. First off, to clarify, I was not jumpseating, I was riding on a ZED. My ticket cost $29 plus airport taxes. In addition, I wasn't given an opportunity to put my bag under a seat and was told "there's no overhead space." I politely asked for a chance to put it under my seat or put it behind the pedestal in the cockpit (where it has usually been put historically when I was jumpseating), and she complained that "we're gonna be late. Check your bag or get off my plane". Very uncharacteristic for a SWA employee, I was pretty shocked by that.
$38*
A few notes. First off, SWA carries insurance for this very purpose. They guarantee compensation if they lose the bag of all of their passengers. This comes from an insurance policy that they carry themselves. They take out claims daily on it, the money only comes from the airline itself in the form of insurance premiums. My bag was worth decidedly less than their stated maximum, and the reimbursement would've been such an insignificant amount (relative to their total revenue generated from the flight I was on, counting all pax) that it would've been worth it for them to simply follow their own contract of carriage. However, they decided that while I, the passenger, must comply with the contract of carriage, they do not. Secondly, it was only 3 days before trial (2 months after I filed the paperwork for the case) that I found out that my bag had been stolen. As far as I knew, up until that point, it was in some other station in their network (they had mislabeled my bag to SLC not PHX, so it was reasonable that it had gone elsewhere.)
On top of all of this, I tried the conventional avenue for almost three months. I called the bag office of 10 stations trying to find my bag. I filed a report with the PHX station and the central bag office. I called daily to see if any bags matching my description had been put into their lost bag system. Finally, after 3 weeks, I received a letter from the head of Customer Service - Baggage that said in no uncertain terms: "We're no longer looking for your bag. It's lost, and we don't owe you diddly. Tough luck." When I called the woman who wrote the letter to try and seek clarification (Where in the CoC was this stipulation?) she refused to call back. When I called the PR dept, they refused to call back. When I called legal, they refused to call back. I was taken back, because I've always heard of how good SWA's employee treatment and passenger customer service was.
Things like this have been said for ages in the industry, but it's said to keep junior people in line. The industry has always been "Sacrifice for the greater good" while the senior members eat their young. When I was furloughed, I was told by everyone "We'll never take a paycut, so you'll come back to full pay" and no more than 1 month after furlough, the paycut passed with an 80% vote. Part of the reason I got out of the airline pilot business.
Thousands of people. People who work so deep in the cubicle zone they have no contact with anyone of any official pilot contacts.
This industry has taken away my quality of life, my paycheck, my job, my dignity. I'm not going to let it take my rollaboard too. You're correct in my assumption that SWA is not my cup of tea. It's a fine company and this whole thing isn't about some personal grudge with SWA. They're great people. This story could very well be about any other airline, but I just happened to be going from BHM to PHX. That's SWA territory. Had it been ATL maybe it would've been DL or US. I'm sure the story would have been the exact same.
You'll likely say "good" but I have made the career change. The diminishing returns of the airlines just weren't worth it for me. For me, I'm making twice as much as I was making as a regional pilot (and I'm not making a lot of money now by any means) with ten times the QoL and never having to work a holiday again in my life. I wouldn't trade that for anything. Even a job at a major.
Fantastically said, only thing about the money is that your answer might be different if you were making sub $30k a year and you just lost half of your wardrobe (or, in my case, half your wardrobe and your college diploma that you were bringing back from your parents house)
Well, okay. First off, to clarify, I was not jumpseating, I was riding on a ZED. My ticket cost $29 plus airport taxes. In addition, I wasn't given an opportunity to put my bag under a seat and was told "there's no overhead space." I politely asked for a chance to put it under my seat or put it behind the pedestal in the cockpit (where it has usually been put historically when I was jumpseating), and she complained that "we're gonna be late. Check your bag or get off my plane". Very uncharacteristic for a SWA employee, I was pretty shocked by that.
$38*
A few notes. First off, SWA carries insurance for this very purpose. They guarantee compensation if they lose the bag of all of their passengers. This comes from an insurance policy that they carry themselves. They take out claims daily on it, the money only comes from the airline itself in the form of insurance premiums. My bag was worth decidedly less than their stated maximum, and the reimbursement would've been such an insignificant amount (relative to their total revenue generated from the flight I was on, counting all pax) that it would've been worth it for them to simply follow their own contract of carriage. However, they decided that while I, the passenger, must comply with the contract of carriage, they do not. Secondly, it was only 3 days before trial (2 months after I filed the paperwork for the case) that I found out that my bag had been stolen. As far as I knew, up until that point, it was in some other station in their network (they had mislabeled my bag to SLC not PHX, so it was reasonable that it had gone elsewhere.)
On top of all of this, I tried the conventional avenue for almost three months. I called the bag office of 10 stations trying to find my bag. I filed a report with the PHX station and the central bag office. I called daily to see if any bags matching my description had been put into their lost bag system. Finally, after 3 weeks, I received a letter from the head of Customer Service - Baggage that said in no uncertain terms: "We're no longer looking for your bag. It's lost, and we don't owe you diddly. Tough luck." When I called the woman who wrote the letter to try and seek clarification (Where in the CoC was this stipulation?) she refused to call back. When I called the PR dept, they refused to call back. When I called legal, they refused to call back. I was taken back, because I've always heard of how good SWA's employee treatment and passenger customer service was.
Things like this have been said for ages in the industry, but it's said to keep junior people in line. The industry has always been "Sacrifice for the greater good" while the senior members eat their young. When I was furloughed, I was told by everyone "We'll never take a paycut, so you'll come back to full pay" and no more than 1 month after furlough, the paycut passed with an 80% vote. Part of the reason I got out of the airline pilot business.
Thousands of people. People who work so deep in the cubicle zone they have no contact with anyone of any official pilot contacts.
This industry has taken away my quality of life, my paycheck, my job, my dignity. I'm not going to let it take my rollaboard too. You're correct in my assumption that SWA is not my cup of tea. It's a fine company and this whole thing isn't about some personal grudge with SWA. They're great people. This story could very well be about any other airline, but I just happened to be going from BHM to PHX. That's SWA territory. Had it been ATL maybe it would've been DL or US. I'm sure the story would have been the exact same.
You'll likely say "good" but I have made the career change. The diminishing returns of the airlines just weren't worth it for me. For me, I'm making twice as much as I was making as a regional pilot (and I'm not making a lot of money now by any means) with ten times the QoL and never having to work a holiday again in my life. I wouldn't trade that for anything. Even a job at a major.
Fantastically said, only thing about the money is that your answer might be different if you were making sub $30k a year and you just lost half of your wardrobe (or, in my case, half your wardrobe and your college diploma that you were bringing back from your parents house)
03-20-2010, 04:04 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: FO
Posts: 179
If you purchase a ticket (pass, ZED,etc) through your respective airline's pass department, it is still a ticket. The point is the Contract of Carriage and the rights afforded are for tickets sold through the stated ways. I'm not saying if it is right or wrong, just what it says. I was on a United flight recently and due to delays they moved my flights around. I flew one leg on UAL and then connected onto an American flight. Well my bag didn't show up after the American flight and I was told by American I could file a lost bag claim so they could search their system, but I would have to go to United in order to be compensated since I purchased the ticket from them. Fortunately the bag was found, so I didn't have to go through the process, but I did learn about the boundaries of the contract of carriage.
03-21-2010, 08:00 AM
#69
Line Holder
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: EMB-145 furloughee
Posts: 63
If you purchase a ticket (pass, ZED,etc) through your respective airline's pass department, it is still a ticket. The point is the Contract of Carriage and the rights afforded are for tickets sold through the stated ways. I'm not saying if it is right or wrong, just what it says. I was on a United flight recently and due to delays they moved my flights around. I flew one leg on UAL and then connected onto an American flight. Well my bag didn't show up after the American flight and I was told by American I could file a lost bag claim so they could search their system, but I would have to go to United in order to be compensated since I purchased the ticket from them. Fortunately the bag was found, so I didn't have to go through the process, but I did learn about the boundaries of the contract of carriage.
03-22-2010, 01:25 PM
#70
*********
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Posts: 1,068
Go buy a ZED and fly on Delta with your buddy General Lee. Maybe you can suggle up with him during his break on the ER and you guys can pull out the SWA route map and giggle together.
Glad you're proud of jacking SWA for your stolen bag. I'm sure you would have had a much better experience at every other airline.
Did I mention please spend your $38 somewhere else next time?
Glad you're proud of jacking SWA for your stolen bag. I'm sure you would have had a much better experience at every other airline.
Did I mention please spend your $38 somewhere else next time?
When you ride for free (space A), don't get upset when airlines don't jump over themselves to accomodate you and compensate you. I've never been treated worse than I have riding space-a on USAirways and American. Want to get treated marginally better? Buy a ticket.
P.S. Since when did working for Delta become a pre-req for being a moderator?
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