Allegiant
02-04-2010, 11:49 AM
#161
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: CL-65 captain
Posts: 2,244
I couldn't dream of not having a union on the property I'm at now, but what's that saying about good management not needing unions vs bad managements necessitating organized labor?
Last edited by mooney; 02-04-2010 at 11:59 AM.
02-04-2010, 11:59 AM
#162
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: MD-80 Capt
Posts: 122
There's a HUGE difference between negotiated HARDSHIP concessions and a policy for concessionary pay cuts where hourly pay is reassessed and implemented annually based on 6 month profit margin averages.
As THIS "TA" (and i cringe even calling it that) states, a 20+% profit margin means we get paid with parity (hourly anyway, not workrules) with our industry peers... The company is STILL profitable with double digit profit margins, and we get AUTOMATIC PAY CONCESSIONS bringing us down to BELOW standard MD-80 pay and EXTREMELY SUBSTANDARD 757 pay.
You're saying that's the same as bk court ordered or pilot ratified hardship concessions?
BTW, did you forget that we get paid $20.00 an hour for deadheading? Did you forget that we used to DH crews on long haul (>8hour) redeye pairings? Do you think the 757 crews won't be making 20.00 an hour nearly half of the time?
The reason this crap deal looks good to many AAY pilots is because we currently make 25-50% LESS than ALL COMPARABLE PILOT GROUPS! Chocolate flavored dog crap is probably much better tasting then plain old dog crap. They are both still DOG CRAP.
AAPAG says after we ratify this "TA" (
) they will start "negotiating" for better work rules.. What incentive do you think the company has to "keep negotiating", when you take away the only thing they were using to "negotiate"? Seriously man, we can't have a union drive every time we want something. Most of the OC members said they will never do this again (and based on the way they are being treated by some I can't blame them).Take the money, and vote in ALPA. There is no other way.
02-04-2010, 12:05 PM
#163
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 7
Yes, I am aware of the ALPA sponsored life insurance, short and long term disability and legal protection. Also, their political clout is undeniable, as evidenced by the age 65 rule. But I can't seem to find the "retirement" benefit you have mentioned in the brochure I have in front of me. Please explain.
Lastly, it appears that you don't even work here. You use words like "your work rules" and "your pilot group". If you DO work here and are using phrases like that, you are part of the problem. If you don't work here, why are you wasting your time with the ALPA sales pitch?
• Helps negotiate the retirement and insurance areas of pilot collective bargaining agreements and employee benefit programs.
• Provides employee benefit plan design assistance, legal and actuarial advice, and defined contribution plan investment management analysis.
• Coordinates with ALPA’s Government Affairs department on legislative issues that affect retirement and insurance benefits.
• Provides expert assistance with, and testimony for, benefit-related pilot grievances and disputes
• Conducts retirement and insurance seminars and training for pilot groups.
• Assists the ALPA National R&I and Collective Bargaining Committees by monitoring trends in the bargaining and design of employee and member benefit programs.
To answer your last question, I may work for AAY or I may not. That point is irrelevant. The point is, to know what your options are, what the truth is, what are blatant falsehoods and, what is the best course of action to adequately represent the profession you are in.
02-04-2010, 12:09 PM
#164
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: MD-80 Capt
Posts: 122
just curious, neutral observer here, but of us 93% unionized airline pilots, how many of us has seen our pay slashed or stagnate or been furloghed or downgraded in the past 10 years vs. Allegiant's pay? Have Allegiant guys taken a cut in the last 10 years? raises? Or been furloghed?
I couldn't dream of not having a union on the property I'm at now, but what's that saying about good management not needing unions vs bad managements necessitating organized labor?
I couldn't dream of not having a union on the property I'm at now, but what's that saying about good management not needing unions vs bad managements necessitating organized labor?
we don't have labor friendly management
They are good at making a profit (and increasing stock price), but we don't have corporate culture.
If we did, I would probably not be advocating a union.
The only time pilots make gains, is when there's a knife to Mgm'ts throat. If we vote in this TA and don't unionize, you WILL see loss in the form of these "pre-negotiated concessions" over the next few years..
02-04-2010, 05:37 PM
#165
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 519
BTW, did you forget that we get paid $20.00 an hour for deadheading? Did you forget that we used to DH crews on long haul (>8hour) redeye pairings? Do you think the 757 crews won't be making 20.00 an hour nearly half of the time?
The reason this crap deal looks good to many AAY pilots is because we currently make 25-50% LESS than ALL COMPARABLE PILOT GROUPS! Chocolate flavored dog crap is probably much better tasting then plain old dog crap. They are both still DOG CRAP.
AAPAG says after we ratify this "TA" () they will start "negotiating" for better work rules.. What incentive do you think the company has to "keep negotiating", when you take away the only thing they were using to "negotiate"? Seriously man, we can't have a union drive every time we want something. Most of the OC members said they will never do this again (and based on the way they are being treated by some I can't blame them).
Take the money, and vote in ALPA. There is no other way.
The reason this crap deal looks good to many AAY pilots is because we currently make 25-50% LESS than ALL COMPARABLE PILOT GROUPS! Chocolate flavored dog crap is probably much better tasting then plain old dog crap. They are both still DOG CRAP.
AAPAG says after we ratify this "TA" (
) they will start "negotiating" for better work rules.. What incentive do you think the company has to "keep negotiating", when you take away the only thing they were using to "negotiate"? Seriously man, we can't have a union drive every time we want something. Most of the OC members said they will never do this again (and based on the way they are being treated by some I can't blame them).Take the money, and vote in ALPA. There is no other way.
Thanks to you and the others who have reiterated what the benefits of a union are. ALPA's had trumiphs, but they've also had huge embarassing failures. The question is simply going to come down to: "am I going to get something for my $3000 other than a magazine and a bunch of empty promises?".
Last edited by CLMP; 02-04-2010 at 09:21 PM.
02-04-2010, 10:30 PM
#166
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 34
Lets not be short sighted, you don't have to turn down the pay raises, we can have both. Management didn't have to offer pay raises after the union drive began, they could have given them long before. In fact they broke US labor law by doing so. ALPA has the option to withdraw, but they aren't and they are NOT planning to sue, contrary to what some are telling everybody.
It doesn't always take 3-4 years to get a contract. It can be done in less. The reason it takes longer with a union is because they make everything legally binding. It all goes through the NMB and is recorded, edited, and vetted by a legal council.
Even with the pay raises, we can still vote in the union. Do you really think management did this because they care about us? This "TA" is clearly for one reason alone, union busting. It was not offered because management wants to reward us for our hard work. Nor was it offered because they recognize our expertise or professionalism.
It is the same management that changes our work rules without permission every single year. It is the same management that gave us pay raises last year, then cost us all money by withdrawing open time. It is the same management who line their pockets with hundreds of millions in stock and bonuses yet offer us no retirement fund, the lowest 401K match in the industry, mediocre medical/dental/vision, no sick pay, no paid vacations, and the lowest pay in the industry for the past decade.
If they really wanted to have a happy pilot group and keep the union out, they should have offered us a full TA with improvements across the board. We are more profitable than another similar "blue" airline that voted down an in-house union last year and received a very good TA.
And these are the same people that you want to control your contract and your career rather than a union made up of our own elected pilots? Why wouldn't you want a CBA that is a legal contact recognized by the NMB? Why would you want to risk it with a questionable contract based on questionable tort law and absolutely no legal support?
It doesn't always take 3-4 years to get a contract. It can be done in less. The reason it takes longer with a union is because they make everything legally binding. It all goes through the NMB and is recorded, edited, and vetted by a legal council.
Even with the pay raises, we can still vote in the union. Do you really think management did this because they care about us? This "TA" is clearly for one reason alone, union busting. It was not offered because management wants to reward us for our hard work. Nor was it offered because they recognize our expertise or professionalism.
It is the same management that changes our work rules without permission every single year. It is the same management that gave us pay raises last year, then cost us all money by withdrawing open time. It is the same management who line their pockets with hundreds of millions in stock and bonuses yet offer us no retirement fund, the lowest 401K match in the industry, mediocre medical/dental/vision, no sick pay, no paid vacations, and the lowest pay in the industry for the past decade.
If they really wanted to have a happy pilot group and keep the union out, they should have offered us a full TA with improvements across the board. We are more profitable than another similar "blue" airline that voted down an in-house union last year and received a very good TA.
And these are the same people that you want to control your contract and your career rather than a union made up of our own elected pilots? Why wouldn't you want a CBA that is a legal contact recognized by the NMB? Why would you want to risk it with a questionable contract based on questionable tort law and absolutely no legal support?
is that true?
02-05-2010, 09:11 AM
#167
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: MD-80 Capt
Posts: 122
you don't have to turn down the pay raises, we can have both. Management didn't have to offer pay raises after the union drive began, they could have given them long before.
In fact they broke US labor law by doing so.
ALPA has the option to withdraw, but they aren't and they are NOT planning to sue, contrary to what some are telling everybody.
Even with the pay raises, we can still vote in the union.
his "TA" is clearly for one reason alone, union busting. It was not offered because management wants to reward us for our hard work. Nor was it offered because they recognize our expertise or professionalism.
It is the same management that changes our work rules without permission every single year. It is the same management that gave us pay raises last year, then cost us all money by withdrawing open time. It is the same management who line their pockets with hundreds of millions in stock and bonuses yet offer us no retirement fund,
the lowest 401K match in the industry
mediocre medical/dental/vision
Not great, but not horrible...
no sick pay, no paid vacations,
and the lowest pay in the industry for the past decade.
questionable contract based on questionable tort law
Tort law refers to negligence and liability in regard to personal injury related matters... this is a perverse and nonsensical interpretation on tort law. Just call a lawyer and they'll tell you.
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