Allegiant
02-03-2010, 06:16 PM
#152
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Position: MD-80 Capt
Posts: 122
lol
My buddy just spent $70,000 on legal fees evicting squatters out of his rental property... Good luck with enforcing the "work rules" that LITERALLY say on page 6: "Nothing contained in these work rules should be interpreted as giving rise to a contract or promise of employment for any period of time"
Where do you come up with this crap?
02-03-2010, 06:28 PM
#153
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 7
Its amazing to me that someone can actually try to argue the point of their so called proposed agreement is a legal binding contract.. Some back room deal struck with management at the 11th hour is not because of AAPAGs ability to negotiate, its because they are doing whatever they can to keep ALPA off property.
A sliding payscale based on profit margin, which will go down this year with the opening of GRR, the temporary closing of BLI and the cost of rising fuel is not an optimal way of determining the end of the year W2s. True, it is better than what AAY has now but theres room for drastic improvement.
Back to the legality issue of the 'agreement'. Tell me this, and everyone reading this post is encouraged to answer, if at the bottom page 6 of the Pilots Work Rules, which compensation is stated, in BOLD writting, it states, Nothing contained in these Work Rules should be interpreted as giving rise to a
contract or a promise of employment for any period of time.
how does that secure a legal binding agreement?? Anyone?
A sliding payscale based on profit margin, which will go down this year with the opening of GRR, the temporary closing of BLI and the cost of rising fuel is not an optimal way of determining the end of the year W2s. True, it is better than what AAY has now but theres room for drastic improvement.
Back to the legality issue of the 'agreement'. Tell me this, and everyone reading this post is encouraged to answer, if at the bottom page 6 of the Pilots Work Rules, which compensation is stated, in BOLD writting, it states, Nothing contained in these Work Rules should be interpreted as giving rise to a
contract or a promise of employment for any period of time.
how does that secure a legal binding agreement?? Anyone?
02-03-2010, 10:52 PM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 519
What if you hurt someone and that person told you that they were going to get you back someday. They're not going to tell you when, where, or how. Just....someday. You would probably live in fear over what they were going to do. You would be extra careful and try to grow eyes in the back of your head. So, one day that person comes up to you and punches you in the arm and then says, "there, we're even". Are you going to worry anymore? Sometimes keeping the threat is your best weapon.
02-04-2010, 12:04 AM
#156
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 7
Im sure there are plenty of people at Allegiant that are happy with the new proposal and thats fine, but as i stated why just settle with pay when a CBA can offer so much more.. Medical, Retirement, Disability, etc??
You have a home or apartment. Is it not insured? Do you own a car or motor vehicle? Is it not insured? You have some form of medical insurance dont you? The question is posed that after all the years of flight training, eating ramen noodles, living paycheck to paycheck to finally getting to a profitable airline, why would you not want insurance for something you strived so hard to achieve? I hear people complain about union dues.. Really?? Your career path is not worth it? As for me, ALPA dues, after taking out the tax deductions, would be less per month then my car insurance.. Accidents and incidents happen. Sometimes they may be our fault and sometimes they may not, but, wouldn't you want the security in knowing someone has your back? Haven't you worked too hard to have a 'will to work' policy where one can be terminated at any time for any reason. Oh wait.. Thats the fear you spoke of isnt it?
Fear is not leverage. A union, more specifically a CBA, recognized by the NMB is THE leverage.
Lets go to war together.. Ill have bullets in my rifle and you can have the leverage of fear that you have bullets in yours. We'll see who comes home.
02-04-2010, 09:22 AM
#157
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 519
So you then agree with me that the 'agreement' AAPAG has with management is NON-BINDING, NOT a contract and will NOT hold up in any court?
Im sure there are plenty of people at Allegiant that are happy with the new proposal and thats fine, but as i stated why just settle with pay when a CBA can offer so much more.. Medical, Retirement, Disability, etc??
You have a home or apartment. Is it not insured? Do you own a car or motor vehicle? Is it not insured? You have some form of medical insurance dont you? The question is posed that after all the years of flight training, eating ramen noodles, living paycheck to paycheck to finally getting to a profitable airline, why would you not want insurance for something you strived so hard to achieve? I hear people complain about union dues.. Really?? Your career path is not worth it? As for me, ALPA dues, after taking out the tax deductions, would be less per month then my car insurance.. Accidents and incidents happen. Sometimes they may be our fault and sometimes they may not, but, wouldn't you want the security in knowing someone has your back? Haven't you worked too hard to have a 'will to work' policy where one can be terminated at any time for any reason. Oh wait.. Thats the fear you spoke of isnt it?
Fear is not leverage. A union, more specifically a CBA, recognized by the NMB is THE leverage.
Lets go to war together.. Ill have bullets in my rifle and you can have the leverage of fear that you have bullets in yours. We'll see who comes home.
Im sure there are plenty of people at Allegiant that are happy with the new proposal and thats fine, but as i stated why just settle with pay when a CBA can offer so much more.. Medical, Retirement, Disability, etc??
You have a home or apartment. Is it not insured? Do you own a car or motor vehicle? Is it not insured? You have some form of medical insurance dont you? The question is posed that after all the years of flight training, eating ramen noodles, living paycheck to paycheck to finally getting to a profitable airline, why would you not want insurance for something you strived so hard to achieve? I hear people complain about union dues.. Really?? Your career path is not worth it? As for me, ALPA dues, after taking out the tax deductions, would be less per month then my car insurance.. Accidents and incidents happen. Sometimes they may be our fault and sometimes they may not, but, wouldn't you want the security in knowing someone has your back? Haven't you worked too hard to have a 'will to work' policy where one can be terminated at any time for any reason. Oh wait.. Thats the fear you spoke of isnt it?
Fear is not leverage. A union, more specifically a CBA, recognized by the NMB is THE leverage.
Lets go to war together.. Ill have bullets in my rifle and you can have the leverage of fear that you have bullets in yours. We'll see who comes home.
02-04-2010, 09:34 AM
#158
New Hire
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 7
Again I ask you, do you still believe that your AAPAG negotiators have a binding legal document, AS THEY SAY THEY DO, or not.. If you do then please explain to me what does, in bold letters at the bottom of page 6 on your pilot work rules, mean.
If you dont believe that it is legally binding, then why are you protecting and believing an AAPAG rep that is just flat out lying?
Secondly, Im well aware of who comprises your pilot work group.
If you read my post instead of trying to avoid my direct question, I never said ALPA offers 'solid rock protection' but yes, they do offer several forms of protection, lest it be legal, medical or retirement. What does your AAPAG body offer?
You're trying to play the game of asking non-linear questions hoping to avoid my direct questions and responses.. Clearly I, along with Im sure many others, can see your tactic of stalling as long as you can so you don't have to answer the questions I posed because you don't like what your answer would be.
If you dont believe that it is legally binding, then why are you protecting and believing an AAPAG rep that is just flat out lying?
Secondly, Im well aware of who comprises your pilot work group.
If you read my post instead of trying to avoid my direct question, I never said ALPA offers 'solid rock protection' but yes, they do offer several forms of protection, lest it be legal, medical or retirement. What does your AAPAG body offer?
You're trying to play the game of asking non-linear questions hoping to avoid my direct questions and responses.. Clearly I, along with Im sure many others, can see your tactic of stalling as long as you can so you don't have to answer the questions I posed because you don't like what your answer would be.
Last edited by NoKoolaid4me; 02-04-2010 at 09:47 AM.
02-04-2010, 09:39 AM
#159
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,480
Of course your pilots aren't stupid. Unfortunately, many who have been furloughed from Union airlines mistakenly blame THE UNION for their furlough. Unions don't furlough anyone. Companies do.
But that experience often colors their opinions when union organizing drives inevitably occur. That's why you'll often hear (if you're on the inside), "Anyone but ALPA." And you can understand where that opinion comes from.
Hanging your hat on the theory "our agreement with the Company has the same legal status as a Union Contract" is dangerous. Its just plain wrong, as other posters have pointed out.
Non-Union Companies can change pay and work rules on a whim. Some airlines have had their work rules in a loose leaf binder to make it easier to to change them at random. To codify a sliding pay scale based on Corporate profitability is nuts. A performance based annual payout is one thing, but to tie your basic pay to a profit/loss sheet entirely controlled BY THE COMPANY would make me as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
But that experience often colors their opinions when union organizing drives inevitably occur. That's why you'll often hear (if you're on the inside), "Anyone but ALPA." And you can understand where that opinion comes from.
Hanging your hat on the theory "our agreement with the Company has the same legal status as a Union Contract" is dangerous. Its just plain wrong, as other posters have pointed out.
Non-Union Companies can change pay and work rules on a whim. Some airlines have had their work rules in a loose leaf binder to make it easier to to change them at random. To codify a sliding pay scale based on Corporate profitability is nuts. A performance based annual payout is one thing, but to tie your basic pay to a profit/loss sheet entirely controlled BY THE COMPANY would make me as nervous as a cat in a room full of rocking chairs.
02-04-2010, 11:05 AM
#160
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2010
Posts: 519
Again I ask you, do you still believe that your AAPAG negotiators have a binding legal document, AS THEY SAY THEY DO, or not.. If you do then please explain to me what does, in bold letters at the bottom of page 6 on your pilot work rules, mean.
If you dont believe that it is legally binding, then why are you protecting and believing an AAPAG rep that is just flat out lying?
Secondly, Im well aware of who comprises your pilot work group.
If you read my post instead of trying to avoid my direct question, I never said ALPA offers 'solid rock protection' but yes, they do offer several forms of protection, lest it be legal, medical or retirement. What does your AAPAG body offer?
You're trying to play the game of asking non-linear questions hoping to avoid my direct questions and responses.. Clearly I, along with Im sure many others, can see your tactic of stalling as long as you can so you don't have to answer the questions I posed because you don't like what your answer would be.
If you dont believe that it is legally binding, then why are you protecting and believing an AAPAG rep that is just flat out lying?
Secondly, Im well aware of who comprises your pilot work group.
If you read my post instead of trying to avoid my direct question, I never said ALPA offers 'solid rock protection' but yes, they do offer several forms of protection, lest it be legal, medical or retirement. What does your AAPAG body offer?
You're trying to play the game of asking non-linear questions hoping to avoid my direct questions and responses.. Clearly I, along with Im sure many others, can see your tactic of stalling as long as you can so you don't have to answer the questions I posed because you don't like what your answer would be.
Ok, so we at AAY vote in ALPA. Several years later we have a legally binding CBA. The company can't unilaterally change our pay and/or work rules. Fantastic! What about bankruptcy? I seem to remember the courts decimating the legally binding CBAs of the legacy carriers shortly after 9/11. Even without bankruptcy, I can't think of a single pilot group who didn't fold like a card table when the company came asking for concessions under the guise of "financial difficulty" or "impending furloughs".
Yes, I am aware of the ALPA sponsored life insurance, short and long term disability and legal protection. Also, their political clout is undeniable, as evidenced by the age 65 rule. But I can't seem to find the "retirement" benefit you have mentioned in the brochure I have in front of me. Please explain.
Lastly, it appears that you don't even work here. You use words like "your work rules" and "your pilot group". If you DO work here and are using phrases like that, you are part of the problem. If you don't work here, why are you wasting your time with the ALPA sales pitch?
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