FlyingNasaForm

There was an article in the Nov Flying magazine. Skiles was interviewed and said that he and Sullenberger both wore non-approved leather jackets up to that point. I don't think they were hat wearers either. Since the event they've switched to the standard uniform with blazers.

Sink r8

I can't agree more. Two wrongs do not make a right. No matter how angry we are at the state of profession, there is no path to restoration that goes through unprofessional behavior.

What we need to do is both ensure from within that we don't let our standards slip, and communciate better, more vigorously, and more frequently that we professionals are dissatisfied with the current state of our profession, and demand better. That's what lacking: some sort of effective and productive outlet for our anger, that actually sways public opinion in our favor. Let passeengers see informational picketing when they go to the airport. Let them know the people that ensure they are safe everyday are definitely not happy.

Don't send the message that we're less and less capable of keeping them safe because we care less and less. That's not going to get us sympathy. It'll only help make the argument that we're the weakest link, and need to eventually be replaced, sooner.

WRT the NW A-320 guys, I can't find a way to defend their behavior based on the "facts" that have been leaked, and I don't think that should be our focus. With that being said, I am absolutely disgusted by the obvious denial of due process, and by their trial in the court of public opinion, including on this board.

Our focus needs to be what it always was: be excellent pilots, AND be appropriately compensated for our professionalism.

USMCFLYR

This might be true of the flight suit - but did you still not wear it as prescribed (number of patches, types of patches, where those patches were to be located?) and what about all of your OTHER uniforms? Did you not wear those as required by the USAF regulations. I want to wear a flight suit for the rest of my life too - but my standards (and my trainin over the lest many years) will impell me to wear whatever 'uniform' I am required to wear IAW regulations. Maybe some who buck this policy have just never been told what to wear - to include their parents.

To the other poster who mentioned starting wages and the tie to professionalism - - there are LONG threads on those views, but I am one who doesn't buy that tie. I am in the camp that considers professionalism something inside a person that comes out in the performance of ones duties. Our young enlisted military members certainly aren't paid what they are worth or enough for the job they are doing either but I see professionalism exuding from them on a daily basis for the large majority (there is alwats that 10% group of bad apples anywhere you go though )
IMO

USMCFLYR

yamahas3

You pay people like crap, treat them like crap, and their attitudes and professionalism levels are going to be crap, its as simple as that.

Sink r8

And when they act like crap, and they actually let themselves become crap, then the loop is completed, and they get what they diserve. If I understand correctly, you're advocating a rationale that will help make sure we're not worth more in the future because we're not paid enough in the present... brilliant!

What we're getting paid now is an anomaly, based on a professional pilot group enduring the perfect storm: 9/11, oil-men in the White House, anti-labor people writing laws and enforcing them, and this so-called "Great Recession". If we lower our standards to where we're being paid now, then all we're doing is adapting our performance to match the new lows.

BTW, management has no problem with us being crap, as long as they get to pay us like crap:
1) They have insurance for (a certain number of) crashes, and they can always count on your survival instinct to limit those to a manageable number;
2) They have you to blame if anything happens anyway. If you screw up, assuming you didn't die, you can always be fired;
3) They can always remove you further and further from the equation. They don't mind a future with 100% autolands. For that matter, if a manufacturer will provide it, they have absolutely every incentive to see a future with 0 % of you. It won't happen right away, but it'll happen faster if the public can be convinced that you're crap. The more you are like crap, the faster you help replace yourself. Less you and me only equates to more profits, after all.

TBucket

See, the problem with this line of thinking is the assumption that management will see a force of impeccably dressed uber-professional pilots and say "Man, we should pay these guys more and treat them better!". The reality is that management doesn't operate on what "should be" or what's "Right". I'm not advocating being unprofessional for any reason, but it's extremely naive to think "Be professional and then they'll pay us like professionals".

Unfortunately, I have no idea how to MAKE them treat us like professionals.

Sink r8

Where did I advocate the line of thinking you describe?

Even if we behave like the true professionals some us have forgotten to be, there is no assurance whatsover we'll get what we diserve. We'll only get what we fight for. I'm only saying we stand NO chance of succeeding if we think being disgruntled is some sort of strategy. In effect, the other poster presumes that management perceives a penalty in our current state of mind. I guess the rationale for not acting professional is that management will be dismayed by our sad demeanor, take pity on us, and pay us more for the sheer pleasure of seeing us smiling in our crisp uniforms, and hearing us make beautiful PA's.

I'll say it again: management couldn't care less how we feel, as long as we get the plane to destination, and especially as long as they get to pay us what they pay us now. That's what matters. They like the current state of affairs. Nothing makes them happier. If I was a VP of Flt Ops, and I was reading that my guys are holding out on PA's, dry-cleaning expenses, and personal hygiene, or that they were playing Doom or Grand Theft Auto in the cockpit, with the hope that this would cause me to give them a raise... I'd pee myself from laughing silly.

So to answer your last question, I have a pretty good idea how NOT to make them treat us like professionals: acting like pouting wives, or like children in a tantrum.

acl65pilot

They will pay us what we negotiate. The Public perception battle that we want to win, starts with us being consummate professionals inside and outside of the cockpit. That means wear that darn hat, tie that tie, and polish those shoes.
That irks a lot of guys, but it you show that you are willing to take care of yourself, you are showing some accountability, when you choose not to, that is where we as a profession have an issue.

You will never get paid what you are worth, you will get paid what you negotiate. Hence the reason for a Union/Association in this profession. Seniority abrogates your portability and the ability to move to the next best paying job like Doctors, and other Professionals do.

newKnow

Babbitt told an international aviation club on Wednesday that aviation is facing an "extreme need to refocus on professionalism....."


"I think that this is a sign of a much bigger problem," Babbott said. "I can't regulate professionalism. With everything we know about human factors, there are still those who just ignore the common sense rules of safety."

So, let me get this straight. We [pilots] have 2-3 public incidents in a year that show us in a bad light and the head of the FAA (who used to be the head of the pilots union) paints the entire profession as having an "extreme need to refocus on professionalism."

99.999% of ALL airline flights are operated in a professional way by a professional crew. I take personal offense at the implication because every cockpit that I have been in as a captain or jumpseater has been operated in a very professional way. How dare he imply that they aren't.

I read a stat somewhere that doctors make serious mistakes in about 4% of all their medical procedures. I don't hear the HHS making speaches saying that doctors need to become more professional. Why is the head of the FAA saying that pilots need to be more professional when we have a much better safety record that ANY other profession in the world?

ALPA needs to nip this in the bud, right now.


New K Now

yamahas3

At the regional level at least, with the working conditions, pay, and attitudes, the last few years has produced a significant group of pilots who have never... in their adult lives... known what it is to be professional. People who should absolutely never be accepted into this industry (based on their maturity, attitudes, and professional ability) were offered positions. Why? Because the pay and quality of life is so low that professional aviators wouldn't be caught dead accepting these positions.

Management at airlines has created a subset of airline pilot positions that should have never existed. They're entry level jobs requiring minimal skill, minimal resume, and offer minimal pay and benefits. This didn't happen because mainline pilots don't wear their hats or sleep past their destination, our responsibility as mainline pilots for this is the fact that we let a lot of factors get it in our minds that it is ok to sell out everyone below us.

Yes, pilots as a whole need to sharpen themselves up. I, on a daily basis, see pilots in terminals, hear pilots on the radio, etc that embarrass me. But we also need to recognize that through scope erosion, pay concessions, we have created an entire subset of pilots that are not professionals and may never be. Instead of trying to fix it, we need to bring those jobs back up to the pay and qol standards where they command a professional aviator to fill the seat.