thepilotswife

Three years only if you BELIEVE SWA would not have furloughed and FAPA is telling us different. Just because SWA hasn't furloughed in the past means nothing. Yes, sounds great but only if you are WORKING!!!!

My DH has talked to quite a few FOs who are thankful they still have jobs because they know they would have been out of luck with SWA.

I can almost bet though, if FAPA voted for SWA and then all the FOs ended up being furloughed they would have said FAPA threw them under the bus. It is a no win situation.

Regardless, it wasn't up to the pilots. A lot more people were making this decision than FAPA and this is more than about what the pilots QOL would have been. This was about PRESERVING an airline. Many people did not want FRONTIER to go away and that absolutely was a guarantee.

And, RAH can close this deal next month. SWA could have taken 4-6 months and then if no agreement was reached between the pilots F9 would have been totally SCREWED.

So from my perspective, there was no windfall on either side. There is no guarantee of employment from SWA or RAH. There is no guarantee that Frontier will continue with SWA or RAH (though more of with RAH) there was only the guarantee if they did not get financing they would liquidate come December.

Call it stupid hope but the employees of Frontier want to see their company continue to exist and not get absorbed into another airline. There is NOTHING wrong with that.

Best of luck to everyone in this crazy industry!!

SWApilotwife

I really do hope it works out for you- hell, I hope the future is brighter for everyone in commercial aviation. You are right, it is a crazy industry. I had really hoped it could be a successful combination for both of us, but after reading all of these posts over the last week or so, I can see now it was not a good fit. SWA doesn't need any toxicity added (or stapled) to their culture. And F9 got exactly what they wanted in Republic. In the words of Gary Kelly, "it was not meant to be".

thepilotswife

Nice blow! Exactly the reason why we have had neighbors and friends not even in the airline industry CONGRATULATE us and Frontier for not combining with SWA. You are right, it wasn't a good fit. I'd rather Frontier go down fighting with RAH and be remembered as a good airline that the Denver community loved than be part of an airline whose purpose seems to be to go into cities with the goal to take out the competition.

F9 goes into cities to grow their airline and provide for their customers...BIG DIFFERENCE. So yeah, not a good fit.

I'm done. The rumors that go around on this board are unbelievable. It is hard for me to think that pilots want other pilots to succeed. Just the opposite. You look forward to their failure. People are just waiting to type: I told you so.

And to start quoting other message boards? Really? Because that is such reliable information.

I'll be hoping for the success of everyone, because in the end it will only benefit the airline industry. I'll tell you what, though...I will strongly discourage my kids from going into this line of work. Totally not worth it.

Enjoy your Sunday.

pilot124

By ERIC TORBENSON / The Dallas Morning News
[email protected]
A pilot labor deal for Southwest Airlines Co. might not have made a winning difference in its bid for the assets of bankrupt Frontier Airlines.

It's true that Southwest's pilots couldn't broker an agreement with Frontier's union, causing the Dallas-based airline to withdraw its $174 million bid late Thursday. That made Republic Airways Group Inc. the default winner.

But pilot opposition was only one of several reasons the deal fell apart in the 11th hour. Frontier management and creditors had other problems with Southwest's offer. And there were things they liked more about Republic.

Frontier officials talked publicly Friday about the two offers and their decision process. Southwest officials wouldn't comment beyond a statement issued Thursday evening.

Frontier executives said they liked Republic's ability to close its deal quickly and its commitment to expand Frontier's fleet of Airbus planes. The fact that Republic sweetened its offer at the last minute also helped, Frontier managers said Friday. It had originally bid $108.8 million, but Frontier didn't release the amount of the winning offer.

"I think both parties had a substantial chance of winning," said Sean Menke, Frontier's chief executive, in a conference call. However, Republic's ability to get Frontier out of bankruptcy protection by next month and its vision to keep Frontier as its own airline were significant factors, he said.

Southwest's offer probably would have triggered antitrust concerns from the Department of Justice, and a full competitive review could have taken four to six months, Menke said. Republic has already received antitrust approval to buy Frontier.

Also, Southwest's plan to drop 11 Airbus planes from Frontier's fleet of 51 would have delayed the bankruptcy case and added extra costs that Republic's bid avoids.


Not apples to apples

Among the biggest misconceptions of the auction process was the price tag. Southwest's $174 million offer – some details of which were not made public until Friday – included merger-related costs that never would have found their way to Frontier's creditors. It included a series of extra charges to pay off aircraft lessors and other creditors as well as money for Republic's claim against the Frontier bankruptcy and a termination fee for Republic, an Indianapolis-based airline holding company.

"These were not apples-to-apples comparisons," said Ted Christie, Frontier's chief financial officer.

Indeed, the bids were just a few million dollars apart in total value initially, despite the different totals. Southwest's bid would have paid creditors at a rate of 12 cents on the dollar; Republic's at 9 cents.

But Republic sweetened its offer late in the game, effectively pushing the amount of money creditors received to 19 cents on the dollar by agreeing to accept less money for its claims.


Southwest 'naive'

Critics who watched the process closely said Southwest's bid wasn't ready for prime time. Southwest executives "seemed not to understand the dynamics of the process or the obvious bottlenecks and complexities involved," said industry consultant Mo Garfinkle of Arlington, Va. Southwest "was naive and it didn't know it. It underestimated Republic and its talented management team, and it overestimated the reception to a Southwest bid, especially by the Frontier stakeholders."

Southwest withdrew its bid Thursday evening when the pilots' unions of the two airlines could not reach agreements before the auction process, as was required by Southwest's offer. The offer would have given pilots more pay, but kept them at the bottom of the seniority list.

In a note to members Friday, Carl Kuwitzky, president of Southwest's pilots' union, said he applauded Southwest chairman Gary Kelly for sticking to a promise to have the labor settlement a condition of the bid. "I called Gary last night to personally thank him, and he shared a closing thought that I agree with – 'It was not meant to be.' "

Kuwitzky said his team had 3 ½ hours Wednesday to negotiate an agreement that typically would take months. He had his doubts that Frontier pilots "had any intention of ever reaching an agreement" with Southwest and said Frontier's union never responded to calls for more talks Thursday.

Picking the winner was up to Menke, his executives and Frontier's board of directors after they consulted with Frontier's creditors committee. Their obligation was to keep the bidders informed about their status and to work with the trailing bidder to raise their offer. "The whole process was very cordial," he said. "Southwest was very professional."

For Frontier, the focus turns to growing its fleet and emerging from bankruptcy protection, which it said is possible by Sept. 17. Frontier was forced into bankruptcy in April 2008, when its credit card processor changed the terms on ticket sales and tied up substantial amounts of its cash.


Battle for Denver

The Denver air market is no more appealing for three airlines than when Frontier filed for Chapter 11; Southwest continues to add to its presence, though analysts say the carrier is losing money on its fast-growing Denver operations, an assessment Menke agrees with. "They're having some difficulty here," he said, adding that he believes incumbent carrier United is also losing money in Denver and will cede more market share.

Frontier said its lower costs and brand loyalty will help it survive in Denver. Frontier believes its operating costs are lower than Southwest's and substantially lower than United's. "We will continue to compete very, very vigorously," Menke said.

Airline financial analysts such as Vaughn Cordle of AirlineForecasts LLC expect a brutal war of attrition in Denver. Republic-controlled Frontier is unlikely to win unless Republic replaces some of Frontier's Airbus aircraft with its own regional jets flown by pilots making substantially less than what Frontier pilots are paid.

He estimates that Frontier's pilots cost the carrier $170 an hour in wages and benefits, compared with $99 an hour for Republic's regional jet pilots; Southwest's pilots cost $290 an hour, he estimates.

Cordle said that although Southwest pilots make more, the carrier can absorb deep losses in Denver that Frontier cannot.

Cutting pilot costs "is the only way Republic's Frontier survives," he said Friday, noting that Republic is in the process of switching out bigger planes for smaller ones with Midwest Airlines, the Milwaukee-based carrier that Republic officially bought July 31.

Investors had bid up Southwest's shares 20 percent since July 30, when the airline announced its intention to bid on Frontier. Southwest shares fell 19 cents to $9.08 Friday, while Republic's shares rose 60 cents to $6.60.

4th Level

So you would rather have every single F9 employee unemployed than become part of the biggest success story in the history of commercial aviation. Got it. And for the record "taking out competition" is called business.

So now all the FO's would have been furloughed. Wow. Lets pretend for a second that WN, for the first time ever, added to your existing furloughs. How long would they have been there given the huge growth potential in a 2 airline DEN hub? Not long. And what would those FO's career earnings likely have been?

I honestly think F9 is a great airline and hope it works out the best for all of you.

Now, about Airtran........

thepilotswife

Seriously, how many F9 employees (not including pilots) would have been out of a job had the deal gone down with SWA. This is about an ENTIRE company. MANY MANY more would have lost their jobs with SWA.

We don't know for a fact that F9 won't survive under SWA. We do know for a fact that other than pilots most employees would have been out of a job.

4th Level

YOU brought up the "plight" of the FO's. I was only responding in kind. And I agree, it is about all the employees. The same ones you would rather see unemployed than become part of WN.

thepilotswife

That is my point. Other than the pilots would the rest of the F9 employees become part of WN? The FAs thought the pilots already were throwing them under the bus by talking with SWAPA. Would Customer Service, Gate Agents, IT, marketing, rampers, mechanics all have jobs at WN?

4th Level

Your point was about the FO's. But in answer to your new question - we'll never know.

Good luck with RAH.

SWApilotwife

It was not meant to be a blow. The F9 pilots that came on this board bashing SWA could have been toxic to work with had the deal gone through. And I quoted Gary Kelly from The Dallas News. I thought you were done on here... Well, I have to go. We are putting our boat in the lake. I am going to go "enjoy my Sunday". (I am quoting you, just for the record)