F9, WN, and RAH-Everyone got what they wanted
08-14-2009, 09:58 PM
#11
On Reserve
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: A320 CAPT
Posts: 21
Management at WN will get what they want one way or the other, IMHO there will be growth in the next 18-24 months, and unfortunately (and this is not wishful thinking by any means) a few folks will be out of a job in DEN and MKE. If there is one thing for sure is that WN is extremely territorial. Best of luck to the F9 guys, I think their senior pilots just sold them up the river.
08-14-2009, 10:18 PM
#12
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 32
sempergumby,
Emotions have run very high the past few days. I guess I am wondering why people think F9 "won" the battle in Denver when they went into bankruptcy, took concessions from their work groups, and then went to auction in bankruptcy court. SWA has its own issues, losing money for the first time since the early 90's, losing money for 2 consecutive quarters, but last quarter made a profit, and load factors are through the roof due to the fire sales on tickets this quarter. This is not hubris or arrogance from SWA, just wondering how Frontier "won" the battle in Denver? Frontier is hoping to expand and become a "player/major" (for lack of better words) and grow in the airline industry, but was just bought by a regional airline holding company/management company? How deep are those pockets? Southwest will continue to slash prices in DEN to keep the pressure on. Southwest is Clown Shoes because it can't/won't go near international, exploit untapped markets outside US. They have tons of issues, and that is agreed. The notion that Frontier is winning by being bought by Republic is hard for me to understand. Not a personal attack or saying anyone is better than the other, but I would like to understand the thoughts behind that. SWA has been beaten up pretty good here, a lot of SWA people (including me) have been less than respectful (I am Irish, excitable, and drink from time to time, cut me some slack). I don't know what the plan is at RAH for F9, but what is F9's plan to get out of Bankruptcy and make a profit? More wage cuts for all? Price wars? Furloughs? When RAH wins the bid at 18 cents on the dollar, how will the profits be achievable when F9 has to pay 100 cents on the dollar? SWA will keep doing what we are doing, and probably put more pressure on in Denver. I agree that SWA is no longer a big growth airline, upgrade times after the age 65 debacle evens out will be 10-15 years and mostly due to retirements, etc. 5 year upgrades will never happen again. We have lots of issues, so don't think I am slinging mud and we are great. Just curious.
Emotions have run very high the past few days. I guess I am wondering why people think F9 "won" the battle in Denver when they went into bankruptcy, took concessions from their work groups, and then went to auction in bankruptcy court. SWA has its own issues, losing money for the first time since the early 90's, losing money for 2 consecutive quarters, but last quarter made a profit, and load factors are through the roof due to the fire sales on tickets this quarter. This is not hubris or arrogance from SWA, just wondering how Frontier "won" the battle in Denver? Frontier is hoping to expand and become a "player/major" (for lack of better words) and grow in the airline industry, but was just bought by a regional airline holding company/management company? How deep are those pockets? Southwest will continue to slash prices in DEN to keep the pressure on. Southwest is Clown Shoes because it can't/won't go near international, exploit untapped markets outside US. They have tons of issues, and that is agreed. The notion that Frontier is winning by being bought by Republic is hard for me to understand. Not a personal attack or saying anyone is better than the other, but I would like to understand the thoughts behind that. SWA has been beaten up pretty good here, a lot of SWA people (including me) have been less than respectful (I am Irish, excitable, and drink from time to time, cut me some slack). I don't know what the plan is at RAH for F9, but what is F9's plan to get out of Bankruptcy and make a profit? More wage cuts for all? Price wars? Furloughs? When RAH wins the bid at 18 cents on the dollar, how will the profits be achievable when F9 has to pay 100 cents on the dollar? SWA will keep doing what we are doing, and probably put more pressure on in Denver. I agree that SWA is no longer a big growth airline, upgrade times after the age 65 debacle evens out will be 10-15 years and mostly due to retirements, etc. 5 year upgrades will never happen again. We have lots of issues, so don't think I am slinging mud and we are great. Just curious.
08-14-2009, 10:18 PM
#13
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2005
Position: sitting at computer keyboard
Posts: 135
I think WN Management assumed Frontier would simply go away on their own. This was the same approach they took in PHL with USAirways and that didn't go according to their plan either. Sadly, I'm starting to see a trend coming from the Dallas Puzzle Palace....
Last edited by corl737; 08-14-2009 at 10:44 PM.
08-14-2009, 10:30 PM
#14
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B777 FO/IRO
Posts: 264
I will venture the other direction. I believe that you guys will be swimming a little longer than you think. My MCO SWA friends have all had their line values cut to the equivalent of 65 hours per month with no open time for them to grab just so they don't furlough anyone. So, bring your floaties to the Kool-Aid pool party and get ready to serve up some drinks.
08-15-2009, 12:28 AM
#15
Line Holder
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Position: 737 F/O
Posts: 75
08-15-2009, 03:15 AM
#16
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 17
In the end everyone should have a new respect for those that went to bat for them.
FAPA told their membership we will not accept a staple, they fought for their members and delivered exactly what they promised.
SWAPA promised their membership that they would not allow F9 pilots in front of their current members. They delivered on that promise. SWA management promised they would kill any deal that did not have a labor agreement. SWA management lived up to their promise despite losing what they saw as a profitable venture.
Republic promised they would put their best offer on the table and fight to acquire F9. They did just that and ended up the victor of the auction.
In the end everyone got exactly what they were promised. For better or worse everybody delivered what they said they would. It does not always end up this way and to all involved, congratulations.
FAPA told their membership we will not accept a staple, they fought for their members and delivered exactly what they promised.
SWAPA promised their membership that they would not allow F9 pilots in front of their current members. They delivered on that promise. SWA management promised they would kill any deal that did not have a labor agreement. SWA management lived up to their promise despite losing what they saw as a profitable venture.
Republic promised they would put their best offer on the table and fight to acquire F9. They did just that and ended up the victor of the auction.
In the end everyone got exactly what they were promised. For better or worse everybody delivered what they said they would. It does not always end up this way and to all involved, congratulations.
The one thing I would like to point out as this subject simmers down (ya right?), is the fact that the intent of the McCaskill-Bond Legislation actually worked. From what I know this legislation came about because a group of pilots (Keeping this basic on purpose) got stapled to the bottom of the seniority list as a result of a merger.
Southwest knew about the "intent" McCaskill-Bond Legislation and attempted to get the Frontier folks to waive it. Needless to say that didn't happen. Knowing the next step of this legislation, SW bowed out of the game. Is that so bad? Is anyone at fault? No, this prevented a group of guys from getting caught up in a "you screwed me" competition for many years to come.
Last edited by R2800; 08-15-2009 at 03:26 AM.
08-15-2009, 04:23 AM
#17
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: F/O- G-V/550
Posts: 1,163
In the end everyone should have a new respect for those that went to bat for them.
FAPA told their membership we will not accept a staple, they fought for their members and delivered exactly what they promised.
SWAPA promised their membership that they would not allow F9 pilots in front of their current members. They delivered on that promise. SWA management promised they would kill any deal that did not have a labor agreement. SWA management lived up to their promise despite losing what they saw as a profitable venture.
Republic promised they would put their best offer on the table and fight to acquire F9. They did just that and ended up the victor of the auction.
In the end everyone got exactly what they were promised. For better or worse everybody delivered what they said they would. It does not always end up this way and to all involved, congratulations.
FAPA told their membership we will not accept a staple, they fought for their members and delivered exactly what they promised.
SWAPA promised their membership that they would not allow F9 pilots in front of their current members. They delivered on that promise. SWA management promised they would kill any deal that did not have a labor agreement. SWA management lived up to their promise despite losing what they saw as a profitable venture.
Republic promised they would put their best offer on the table and fight to acquire F9. They did just that and ended up the victor of the auction.
In the end everyone got exactly what they were promised. For better or worse everybody delivered what they said they would. It does not always end up this way and to all involved, congratulations.
I bet the mojority of F9 pilots would MUCH rather be stapled to the bottom of Southwest's senioriy list than a fair merger with republic... I know I would. The F9 guys were stuck in the middle with 2 few options
(A) join Southwest at the bottom
(B) join a regional in the middle
I'd take option A any day
The Frontier guys wanted the Southwest deal, not Republic, no matter the circumtances..... as someone said, the Southwest poolies were the only victors.
08-15-2009, 04:57 AM
#18
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 17
The Frontier guys got the message in "the meeting" that if furloughed they had no rights to recall. Now say what you just said again? Bottom of what river? SW is already supposedly 200 pilots heavy!
The two groups of pilots would have worked wonderfully together. It is just flat sad that terms couldn't be met by both sides!
The two groups of pilots would have worked wonderfully together. It is just flat sad that terms couldn't be met by both sides!
Last edited by R2800; 08-15-2009 at 05:17 AM.
08-15-2009, 07:36 AM
#20
On Reserve
Joined APC: Aug 2009
Posts: 17
No kidding... It was "sounding" like they were going to get really lucky! Looks like the Republic bid was far better for the creditors anyway.
Well Lynx/Frontier will be on the same list now. Should be able to head over to the bus as seniority permits.
Well Lynx/Frontier will be on the same list now. Should be able to head over to the bus as seniority permits.
Last edited by R2800; 08-15-2009 at 07:47 AM.
