tsquare

Actually, this isn't bad.. It is interesting. One thing about it, when the company starts screaming poor mouth about pilots' pay, we would be able to respond in public that (we) are the most "experienced" pilots and would have empiracle data to prove it. One thing that might be a fly in the ointment would be when you have a former military captain sitting in the left seat who brought 1500 miliitary hours to the game and took, oh say 5000 more to upgrade, and a commuter guy new hire who has 12,000 hours sitting to his right. But I think the base here is a nice outside the box thought.

Boogie Nights

If this was a national manditory pay rate. It would level the playing field among the airlines. Airlines could not come to us and say pilot pay is killing us because everyone would be paying the same. It would have to be poor management.
-Unions could focus on work rules (which should be their focus) and safety.
-Senior guys might work a little more to build time increasing productivity (at least till they max out the pay rate).
-Might reduce training cost as guys might be less likely to switch airframes when there is no $$ to do so.


B-

Boogie Nights

-Well precious few 17 years have 1,500 hrs for ATPs. Pilots will need certain amount of hours to fly certain size planes (remember). Unions would bring down the rath of the membership is they start letting senior guys go. Lastly the airlines would have a level playing field. I am sure Airlines with inexpirience pilots flying and crashing planes would generate lists and the public would know what airlines are safest.

SaltyDog

Boogie Night, You and Freedom 421 are little to focused exclusively on the pilot group. You really need to appreciate that each company is very different in terms of viability in the market. Ultimately, you need to reconcile that very real business fact. Example:Southwest and UAL.
Additionally, specifically to pay: If industry charges a 'pilot surcharge' do you not think you would set the model for the very necessary mechanics? Can't fly planes without their skill. How about the flight attendants? Do you suppose the flight attendants will stand in solidarity with pilots making more under your proposal and they will sit it out? Nope, now the 'surcharge' is going to be in competition. How much to the pilots/flight attendants /mechanics and other employee groups? Really an acrimonious atmosphere. Now if you made the proposal to involve those employee groups, perhaps you could make it work.

The caveats are extraordinary though. Just sticking with the pilots, seniority is still necessary for bidding work at most airlines. Why? Most business' work that way. If you are paid by seat occupancy, the junior folks will be rather lowly paid in relation to the higher yield routes. If you consider that premise, the union is splitting itself up into haves and have nots. The senior make the junior folks poorer for same job. How will that play for unity and a strong contract? Would offer, not so much. Reason I think everyone says hourly rate. If you can work in the 'salary' equation proposed, that will mitigate to a degree the union division. What I think you should be doing with this creative and necessary thinking is encourage the union leadership to work in coalition to strategize a way that pilot unions back each other more effectively in contract talks tat carry leverage downstream.

Example: When times are good, all unions contractually forbid any 'pay for training' We all know how corrosive that is in our particular profession with regards to unity and future pay leverage (Tough to say we want x,y,z and management scoffs and says 'Don't need to, you will pay to get the job and their is a long out the door"

Next example: State that you pilot union has the contractual right to legally strike if any other employee group on the company property strikes. If the baggage loaders or mechanics strike. Guess what, the other unions have indeed grounded the airline and you don't have a repeat of the Northwest mechanics striking legally and the airline hired scabs. Imagine if the pilots had legally walked with that contractual clause. This happened at UPS in 1997. UPS settled and the unions were strategically more aligned helping the employee groups. You get the idea, you work to get strategic partners in the other airline employee groups where you work (flight attendants/mechanics,etc)

Summary: Protect most junior new hires from low pay and pay for training. Once those are in place, you are a more cohesive and unified bargaining unit. That produces real advances in quality of life and compensation as our starting points are all higher. Takes along time to coordinate everyone working towards including some of these contractual provisions . Industry wide union solidarity between ALPA, Teamsters and Independents critical to a professional success. Really though, you would need that to get you original proposal off the ground. Wish us all luck

Flyby1206

Whatever the solution is, I believe you have an important point here. Mandatory pay rates across the board no matter the airline. Either a minimum pay, or a set payscale would require airlines to offer some benefits above the average to attract and retain pilots.