F9 & RAH new seniority list?
07-04-2009, 01:10 AM
#61
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: MD80
Posts: 1,111
Flex I appreciate the honest question and I’ll give my best most honest answer regardless of how brutal it may seem. These are my views on the subject and I speak on no behalf of anyone else.
The statement in which you quoted me was taken a little out of context. Johnso29 was pointing out that because Frontier has larger aircraft that would be the determining factor in who gets placed where. Respectfully I don’t agree with that thought. At no point do I believe in the word staple being used during these discussions. My statement was in regards to what would more than likely be considered by an arbitrator for integration. I didn’t say that I was entitled to anything and didn’t speak on behalf of anyone else with that statement. I simply said that the arbitrator will decide who deserves what. I didn’t say what I thought I deserved but several felt I have so I’ll do my best to make my points here as best I can.
First off you are a very experienced pilot and I’ll welcome a chat with you anytime via here, PMs, email, or even phone. No statements made here are in a direct attack on any person’s credibility or professionalism. My statements are based on a more simplistic and removed view.
People keep saying “Don’t think that RAH is saving Frontier they’ll make it on their own”. This might be a completely true statement but there are two things that need to be mentioned.
1) Frontier has no money and with rising fuel cost they have no cushion to use during what could be another downturn in this current recession. No one can see the future and the chips are still stacked against the company.
2) Frontier doesn’t need saving by RAH because it already HAS been saved. When F9(I’ll use that for now I’m tired of tying Frontier) started to have issues and the credit market seized up their days were numbered. Once they went BK their fate was sealed at that point without intervention from an outside source. They lease half their aircraft, were deep in debt, couldn’t make their payments, taking concessions from employees, and couldn’t secure loans from creditors. RAH stepped in and made loans to F9 giving them room to breath and time to restructure. They didn’t just do this once but on multiple occasions. I’m not acting as if the pilot group at RAH broke out their wallets and walked over with their own money and made the difference. This was one management to another. Without the intervention of Bedford, regardless of his long term intentions, F9 would have had to cease operations. This isn’t an opinion but a truth made public by the company itself. Remember that F9 is in such dire straits that it was able to put itself in a position to be purchased by a regional.
Now I know that you personally are a very experienced pilot and have been around the block a few times. You’ve paid dues at your airline and been an apparent active part in your companies union. Why? Was it for job security? To protect what you’ve earned? To keep the field fair for you? I’m assuming the answer to those questions is “Yes”. Well you can turn those same questions to me and I’d say “Yes” to them as well. I came to RAH because I wanted to work here. I started paying dues from day one so that I would have job security, protection, and to keep the playing field here fair for me as well. I keep seeing people ask what do I consider is fair for them. Everyone seems to skip over what I consider fair for myself and those I work with. I don’t think it’s fair that I’ve been a loyal employee of this company since the day I’ve started, that I’ve paid dues here since the day I’ve started, and that all that will earn me here is a kick to the back of the line because my company decided to purchase someone else. Someone else who hasn’t paid dues here, who hasn’t been loyal here, and who spends a good amount of their time telling us how much scum we are…
When I talk about who’s entitled to what I’m not speaking on flight time or how many airlines someone has worked at. The fact that someone in your position has more flight time and more experience is why you’re at a Major to start with. That is what you were entitled to and that is what you received. I don’t have your qualifications. When I was job searching I had only 2,000hrs of flight time and a small chunk of turbine PIC. I wasn’t entitled to a job at a major but I was entitled to a job at a regional so that’s what I took. Since then I have been a loyal due paying member of this airline. As far as I’m concerned that is where the entitlement for everyone stops. The F9 and Midwest guys were entitled to a higher level job and that is what they received. Hopefully for you that’s where you’ll stay for the rest of your years. However your years in the industry do not entitle you to my seniority list. F9 and Midwest pilots don’t feel they owe RAH pilots anything and I don’t know any that wouldn’t agree with you. However that road goes both ways. You can’t sit there and expect the RAH pilots to feel like they owe those pilot groups anything either. I’ve paid dues here so that I could have job security and opportunity for growth. I haven’t been paying dues so that someone else could have my job security and opportunities for growth. Sooner or later we have to accept the fact that this isn’t a socialist industry where everyone’s idea of fairness sweeps across all airlines. There is no national seniority list but now the F9 and Midwest guys seem to think that RAH’s is. I’m sorry but it’s not. No matter how you slice it this seniority list is ours. We’ve paid for it, we’ve negotiated the contract entangled with it, and we’ve worked hard to make sure it stays intact and adhered to by the company. I know those same things could be said for you and your list as well however there’s one thing to remember. The fact still remains that F9 is being purchased by someone else. Whether it was CAL, UAL, SWA, Cape Air, or RAH they are being purchased. If you went to UPS tomorrow and are flying right seat to a CA with half your years and half your flight time do you expect him to simply get up and offer you his seat? I'm sorry but that isn't how it works.
Where’s the fair deal in me working hard to make my company money so that it could simply acquire another and push me to the back of the line? I’m truly sorry that this is the predicament we find ourselves in. We’ve already seen the likes of Skybus, Champion Air, Skyway, Aloha, and ATA close their doors. The times have not be nice and many of people have been put in bad situations. F9 is no different. I feel for those that are on the streets currently and I’ve even helped a handful find jobs flying elsewhere but I don’t expect to simply open up our seniority list to them because they have more time. I appreciate your time and experience in the field but that doesn’t give anyone an automatic leg up in the list that I’ve been paying for since day one. Who deserves what will be decided on by the MEC however I don't expect the pilots of the parent airline to be displaced to the back of the line by those of a newly acquired “branch”. Make no mistake I’ll be glad to have you guys here it will save whipsaw and make any negotiation process better for the groups but check the entitlement attitudes at the door. You guys and your experiences entitled you to fly for a major and that’s what you received. I can’t help the economics of it. But you did receive what you were entitled to. You are not entitled to our seniority list. You’ll become part of the family and join the list but anyone thinking a staple of RAH pilots to the bottom simply because they fly smaller frames is “fair and equitable” will be in for a big surprise.
As far as Midwest pilots go the harsh truth is they have aircraft that will be leaving property soon. They will soon be a pilot group with no frames. Whatever terms they are presented with they won’t have much of a choice on. No one is looking to stick it to anyone but essentially I have nothing to gain by bringing the Midwest guys over. I will only lose job stability and growth opportunities yet I still welcome them. However once again they can check their sense of entitlement at the door. They are receiving jobs in aircraft which is already more than they will have. Whether the Midwest pilots are here or not aircraft will go to the Midwest name and be flown by RAH pilots. If they don't want to be an RAH pilot then that's their choice.
************
As far as “who’s saving who” debate goes it isn’t relevant to say that an RJ partner is saved by someone they do business for. Companies aren’t swooping in and handing out money. They are paying for a service they are receiving. This argument could be made of any service industry. Why don’t we all just call the makers of the PC/MAC we’re on and tell them they owe us for buying their product? Because we’re getting something for our money. Those airlines need regional lift and put out contracts for it. They then pay the person the contract is awarded to and it’s not out of charity.
************
Like I said if you’d like to speak more I’d enjoy the conversation. Feel free to PM me. I’m just trying to be honest and not an armchair QB with this. These are my honest feelings/worries and I don’t see why others wouldn’t share them being in the same situation.
Take care and safe flying,
Duck
The statement in which you quoted me was taken a little out of context. Johnso29 was pointing out that because Frontier has larger aircraft that would be the determining factor in who gets placed where. Respectfully I don’t agree with that thought. At no point do I believe in the word staple being used during these discussions. My statement was in regards to what would more than likely be considered by an arbitrator for integration. I didn’t say that I was entitled to anything and didn’t speak on behalf of anyone else with that statement. I simply said that the arbitrator will decide who deserves what. I didn’t say what I thought I deserved but several felt I have so I’ll do my best to make my points here as best I can.
First off you are a very experienced pilot and I’ll welcome a chat with you anytime via here, PMs, email, or even phone. No statements made here are in a direct attack on any person’s credibility or professionalism. My statements are based on a more simplistic and removed view.
People keep saying “Don’t think that RAH is saving Frontier they’ll make it on their own”. This might be a completely true statement but there are two things that need to be mentioned.
1) Frontier has no money and with rising fuel cost they have no cushion to use during what could be another downturn in this current recession. No one can see the future and the chips are still stacked against the company.
2) Frontier doesn’t need saving by RAH because it already HAS been saved. When F9(I’ll use that for now I’m tired of tying Frontier) started to have issues and the credit market seized up their days were numbered. Once they went BK their fate was sealed at that point without intervention from an outside source. They lease half their aircraft, were deep in debt, couldn’t make their payments, taking concessions from employees, and couldn’t secure loans from creditors. RAH stepped in and made loans to F9 giving them room to breath and time to restructure. They didn’t just do this once but on multiple occasions. I’m not acting as if the pilot group at RAH broke out their wallets and walked over with their own money and made the difference. This was one management to another. Without the intervention of Bedford, regardless of his long term intentions, F9 would have had to cease operations. This isn’t an opinion but a truth made public by the company itself. Remember that F9 is in such dire straits that it was able to put itself in a position to be purchased by a regional.
Now I know that you personally are a very experienced pilot and have been around the block a few times. You’ve paid dues at your airline and been an apparent active part in your companies union. Why? Was it for job security? To protect what you’ve earned? To keep the field fair for you? I’m assuming the answer to those questions is “Yes”. Well you can turn those same questions to me and I’d say “Yes” to them as well. I came to RAH because I wanted to work here. I started paying dues from day one so that I would have job security, protection, and to keep the playing field here fair for me as well. I keep seeing people ask what do I consider is fair for them. Everyone seems to skip over what I consider fair for myself and those I work with. I don’t think it’s fair that I’ve been a loyal employee of this company since the day I’ve started, that I’ve paid dues here since the day I’ve started, and that all that will earn me here is a kick to the back of the line because my company decided to purchase someone else. Someone else who hasn’t paid dues here, who hasn’t been loyal here, and who spends a good amount of their time telling us how much scum we are…
When I talk about who’s entitled to what I’m not speaking on flight time or how many airlines someone has worked at. The fact that someone in your position has more flight time and more experience is why you’re at a Major to start with. That is what you were entitled to and that is what you received. I don’t have your qualifications. When I was job searching I had only 2,000hrs of flight time and a small chunk of turbine PIC. I wasn’t entitled to a job at a major but I was entitled to a job at a regional so that’s what I took. Since then I have been a loyal due paying member of this airline. As far as I’m concerned that is where the entitlement for everyone stops. The F9 and Midwest guys were entitled to a higher level job and that is what they received. Hopefully for you that’s where you’ll stay for the rest of your years. However your years in the industry do not entitle you to my seniority list. F9 and Midwest pilots don’t feel they owe RAH pilots anything and I don’t know any that wouldn’t agree with you. However that road goes both ways. You can’t sit there and expect the RAH pilots to feel like they owe those pilot groups anything either. I’ve paid dues here so that I could have job security and opportunity for growth. I haven’t been paying dues so that someone else could have my job security and opportunities for growth. Sooner or later we have to accept the fact that this isn’t a socialist industry where everyone’s idea of fairness sweeps across all airlines. There is no national seniority list but now the F9 and Midwest guys seem to think that RAH’s is. I’m sorry but it’s not. No matter how you slice it this seniority list is ours. We’ve paid for it, we’ve negotiated the contract entangled with it, and we’ve worked hard to make sure it stays intact and adhered to by the company. I know those same things could be said for you and your list as well however there’s one thing to remember. The fact still remains that F9 is being purchased by someone else. Whether it was CAL, UAL, SWA, Cape Air, or RAH they are being purchased. If you went to UPS tomorrow and are flying right seat to a CA with half your years and half your flight time do you expect him to simply get up and offer you his seat? I'm sorry but that isn't how it works.
Where’s the fair deal in me working hard to make my company money so that it could simply acquire another and push me to the back of the line? I’m truly sorry that this is the predicament we find ourselves in. We’ve already seen the likes of Skybus, Champion Air, Skyway, Aloha, and ATA close their doors. The times have not be nice and many of people have been put in bad situations. F9 is no different. I feel for those that are on the streets currently and I’ve even helped a handful find jobs flying elsewhere but I don’t expect to simply open up our seniority list to them because they have more time. I appreciate your time and experience in the field but that doesn’t give anyone an automatic leg up in the list that I’ve been paying for since day one. Who deserves what will be decided on by the MEC however I don't expect the pilots of the parent airline to be displaced to the back of the line by those of a newly acquired “branch”. Make no mistake I’ll be glad to have you guys here it will save whipsaw and make any negotiation process better for the groups but check the entitlement attitudes at the door. You guys and your experiences entitled you to fly for a major and that’s what you received. I can’t help the economics of it. But you did receive what you were entitled to. You are not entitled to our seniority list. You’ll become part of the family and join the list but anyone thinking a staple of RAH pilots to the bottom simply because they fly smaller frames is “fair and equitable” will be in for a big surprise.
As far as Midwest pilots go the harsh truth is they have aircraft that will be leaving property soon. They will soon be a pilot group with no frames. Whatever terms they are presented with they won’t have much of a choice on. No one is looking to stick it to anyone but essentially I have nothing to gain by bringing the Midwest guys over. I will only lose job stability and growth opportunities yet I still welcome them. However once again they can check their sense of entitlement at the door. They are receiving jobs in aircraft which is already more than they will have. Whether the Midwest pilots are here or not aircraft will go to the Midwest name and be flown by RAH pilots. If they don't want to be an RAH pilot then that's their choice.
************
As far as “who’s saving who” debate goes it isn’t relevant to say that an RJ partner is saved by someone they do business for. Companies aren’t swooping in and handing out money. They are paying for a service they are receiving. This argument could be made of any service industry. Why don’t we all just call the makers of the PC/MAC we’re on and tell them they owe us for buying their product? Because we’re getting something for our money. Those airlines need regional lift and put out contracts for it. They then pay the person the contract is awarded to and it’s not out of charity.
************
Like I said if you’d like to speak more I’d enjoy the conversation. Feel free to PM me. I’m just trying to be honest and not an armchair QB with this. These are my honest feelings/worries and I don’t see why others wouldn’t share them being in the same situation.
Take care and safe flying,
Duck
07-04-2009, 06:02 AM
#62
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Posts: 361
True, but sooner or later there is going to be a conflict of interest. BB and his "mega carrier" will be competing directly against those carriers he currently has contracts with. As an example;
RAH dba UAX has a flight from DEN-IND using an E170
F9 ALSO flights DEN-IND using an Airbus.
United won't be thrilled that BB is competing directly against them.
Usually the arrangement in the FPD/CPA agreements between the "regional" and the legacy don't allow this.
RAH dba UAX has a flight from DEN-IND using an E170
F9 ALSO flights DEN-IND using an Airbus.
United won't be thrilled that BB is competing directly against them.
Usually the arrangement in the FPD/CPA agreements between the "regional" and the legacy don't allow this.
I would imagine BB has the blessing of his partners due to his successful whipsaw testcase at Midwest where he rammed his pathetic work rules and payrates down our throats. I would imagine they want him to be successful so they can cheaply outsource more of their domestic flying.
07-04-2009, 06:54 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Position: Non flying, pays better than any front seat, home every night, not missing the crashpad/
Posts: 133
An arbitrator would also take into account where the money came from that has kept F9 operating this whole time. Aircraft size shouldn't matter in any arbitration. Seniority integration is not about the size of the metal flown but about who deserves what. If RAH saves an airline from dieing then the pilots who have always been loyal to RAH won't get the shaft. Like I said we'll wait to hear from the unions on this one.
I wouldn't bet on anything, just follow the money, that will give the most correct answer. History too validates these types of purchases. When a desired asset is part of a deal, that is one thing, but what happens to the remaining parts, remember what pilots are considered in many parts of companies in the united states, yes a liability and easy to replace. Ask me how I know. It really doesn't matter what the pilot groups think, what you need to find out is what this guy intends on doing and try to work with that the best you can. There is no bargining power for pilot groups, even back when we did, we all ended up on the street.
good luck
07-04-2009, 05:58 PM
#64
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: FO
Posts: 247
I'm not sure if all of you F9ers are aware of Bedford stating that your airline would be more profitable if half of the Airbuses were turned in and those same routes flown with 190's. This leads to an interesting predicament should you cave on scope. If you guys cave on scope, this does lend some credibility to his reason for wanting to keep the certs. seperate for training costs.
Have also heard some rumors that some of your pilots see some good in caving on scope. For the life of me, I can't see any good coming from it.
Good luck.
I just don't see how it could be cheaper to operate 190's instead of airbuses when all the airbuses are full ALL THE TIME in the markets Frontier currently serves. Cost per seat goes down as the size of the plane goes up. The only reason everyone isn't flying 747's around is because they can't fill them. Frontier is filling their planes and trying to trade the 319's and especially the 318's for 320's.
The rumor that we see good in caving on scope is false. I am not sure how the negotiations will come out, but I think all the pilots at Frontier know the importance of scope.
07-04-2009, 06:05 PM
#65
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: May 2006
Position: FO
Posts: 247
I wouldn't worry to much about that. You must realize that while we have those folks you speak off the vast majority of 07 hires and some 08 hires were hired with similiar qualifications. We are not all 23 year old spikey hair pukes. We've flown for other airlines (both Regional and Legacy), 135 Jet operators, 135 cargo operators, military, myself included.
I came to RAH in 07 and I can tell you, everyone in my class had your quals or better, myself included. Why didn't we go to a major then? I can't speak for everyone but I chose to come here b/c I live in base and being able to be at home with my family is more important than any amount of money I would have made commuting to reserve at a major.
Point being, don't look down on us just b/c we are at a "regional." What ever that word even means anymore. Yes, I knew the pay when I came here but I also knew we were going to be in contract negotiations in a few months and was hopeful things would change, and they are. While it will certainly be the debate of the century whether they are changing for the good or for worse. All depends on what side of the fence you're sitting on.
Am I happy that we are growing even if it's by purchasing 2 airlines, Yes. Am I happy about what this means to the industry, what it is doing to 2 other pilot groups, No! With that being said, you guys have to realize that what is done is done and there is no going back. Essentially, you've got 2 choices:
1) Bring you're holier than thou attitude with you when you step foot on the property and get nothing, or
2) Come with an open mind and make the best of a bad situation and put your years of experience to work obtaining a contract that is fair and equitable to all parties involved.
The choice is yours and yours alone.
Remember, we, as pilots, are not the enemy. Do yourself a favor and direct that anger where it belongs, management. If you think for one second that your attitude is going to do you any good when you get here, you're sorely mistaken. It will only serve the company's purpose to further divide the group and you think you have it bad now.
I think I speak for a vast majority of the group in the sense that we are willing to accept both groups with open arms provided you leave your attitudes at the door. As the last thing we need is another US/AW debacle!
Fly safe.
Joker
I came to RAH in 07 and I can tell you, everyone in my class had your quals or better, myself included. Why didn't we go to a major then? I can't speak for everyone but I chose to come here b/c I live in base and being able to be at home with my family is more important than any amount of money I would have made commuting to reserve at a major.
Point being, don't look down on us just b/c we are at a "regional." What ever that word even means anymore. Yes, I knew the pay when I came here but I also knew we were going to be in contract negotiations in a few months and was hopeful things would change, and they are. While it will certainly be the debate of the century whether they are changing for the good or for worse. All depends on what side of the fence you're sitting on.
Am I happy that we are growing even if it's by purchasing 2 airlines, Yes. Am I happy about what this means to the industry, what it is doing to 2 other pilot groups, No! With that being said, you guys have to realize that what is done is done and there is no going back. Essentially, you've got 2 choices:
1) Bring you're holier than thou attitude with you when you step foot on the property and get nothing, or
2) Come with an open mind and make the best of a bad situation and put your years of experience to work obtaining a contract that is fair and equitable to all parties involved.
The choice is yours and yours alone.
Remember, we, as pilots, are not the enemy. Do yourself a favor and direct that anger where it belongs, management. If you think for one second that your attitude is going to do you any good when you get here, you're sorely mistaken. It will only serve the company's purpose to further divide the group and you think you have it bad now.
I think I speak for a vast majority of the group in the sense that we are willing to accept both groups with open arms provided you leave your attitudes at the door. As the last thing we need is another US/AW debacle!
Fly safe.
Joker
My point is the AVERAGE FO at Frontier is more qualified than the average FO at RAH. As i said before, that should be considered if we integrate the lists.
07-04-2009, 06:26 PM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: DD->DH->RU/XE soon to be EV
Posts: 3,732
If you were to go through the ENTIRE seniority list, you'd find people that are well qualified, and people as I've outlined above.
My private-comm instructor is a CA there, his first type rating/turbine PIC was on the 737. As an example.
07-04-2009, 06:59 PM
#67
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
Just read an interesting post on our site concerning this issue. Bedford has told us this exact thing. It's supposedly due to training cost but seems like there is something else brewing.
I'm not sure if all of you F9ers are aware of Bedford stating that your airline would be more profitable if half of the Airbuses were turned in and those same routes flown with 190's. This leads to an interesting predicament should you cave on scope. If you guys cave on scope, this does lend some credibility to his reason for wanting to keep the certs. seperate for training costs.
If the certs are kept seperate you'd have no place on our list and no protection so it would be cheaper for him to furlough rather than retrain you. If you guys don't cave on scope and force integration, you'd have to be retrained and most likely into the 190. Unless he sells 50% at which point, I'd still fight for integration as we certainly will be.
From a business standpoint, he'd rather furlough half of your group than retrain you on the 190.
Hope you guys/gals make the right decision. We are certainly going to do what ever we can to force integration but if you cave on scope, there won't be much we can do for you if he can get around our CBA by selling 50%.
Have also heard some rumors that some of your pilots see some good in caving on scope. For the life of me, I can't see any good coming from it.
Good luck.
I'm not sure if all of you F9ers are aware of Bedford stating that your airline would be more profitable if half of the Airbuses were turned in and those same routes flown with 190's. This leads to an interesting predicament should you cave on scope. If you guys cave on scope, this does lend some credibility to his reason for wanting to keep the certs. seperate for training costs.
If the certs are kept seperate you'd have no place on our list and no protection so it would be cheaper for him to furlough rather than retrain you. If you guys don't cave on scope and force integration, you'd have to be retrained and most likely into the 190. Unless he sells 50% at which point, I'd still fight for integration as we certainly will be.
From a business standpoint, he'd rather furlough half of your group than retrain you on the 190.
Hope you guys/gals make the right decision. We are certainly going to do what ever we can to force integration but if you cave on scope, there won't be much we can do for you if he can get around our CBA by selling 50%.
Have also heard some rumors that some of your pilots see some good in caving on scope. For the life of me, I can't see any good coming from it.
Good luck.
Here is my bet. I bet the lists will be kept seperate and one year from now, you RAH guys will still be flying your RJ's and F9 guys will be flying their Airbuses. But Toilet Boy will still be on here spewing his nonsense about his contract and merging...dah, dah, dah. Meanwhile, the wheel in the sky keeps turning, and nobody's getting any younger.
07-04-2009, 07:23 PM
#68
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Reclined
Posts: 2,168
07-04-2009, 08:09 PM
#69
Moderator
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: B757/767
Posts: 13,088
As you've said before, it's a business. BB will not treat his relationship with his pilots any different because of loyalty. Its just business.
07-05-2009, 12:24 AM
#70
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2006
Posts: 652
Regional and E-190 should not be in the same sentence. Stop calling it an RJ. It is masterful marketing ploy that has proven effective as pilots now call it an RJ.
The only thing regional about it, is Republic's pay.
AA
The only thing regional about it, is Republic's pay.
AA
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