F9 & RAH new seniority list?
07-09-2009, 10:09 PM
#111
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 798
hy⋅per⋅bo⋅le –noun Rhetoric. 1. obvious and intentional exaggeration. 2. an extravagant statement or figure of speech not intended to be taken literally, as “to wait an eternity.”
Origin:
1520–30; < Gk hyperbol
excess, exaggeration, throwing beyond, equiv. to hyper- bol throw
Synonyms:
2. overstatement.
Antonyms:
2. understatement.
Origin:
1520–30; < Gk hyperbol
excess, exaggeration, throwing beyond, equiv. to hyper- bol throwSynonyms:
2. overstatement.
Antonyms:
2. understatement.
That posting seemed die on to me. I think we have different views about outsourcing, undermining other pilots groups, where our profession is heading, how to stop management from making a bonus on employee wage cuts, ...
Last edited by MD80; 07-09-2009 at 10:21 PM.
07-09-2009, 10:25 PM
#112
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,480
Thanks, MadDog. I guess it depends on whose ox is getting gored. And the Midwest/Frontier guys are bleeding all over the place.
07-10-2009, 06:25 AM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,075
Actually, MD80, our views are in a pretty tight formation. I believe that most people, with the possible exception of a very few junior FO's who think they are "entitled" to rapid career advancement, are in agreement with what you posted just above. Including myself. No argument there.
However, the posts being made here by a few specific individuals are indeed fraught with hyperbole.
Most of us, on both sides of the issue, are just along for the ride. Expecting one group to commit mass suicide (refuse the flying or strike illegally) acts to further polarize the pilot groups at a time when we need to be working together to defeat the common enemy.
Hopefully those at all the involved carriers who are tasked with figuring out how to make the best from this plate of spaghetti can work something out that keeps the mainlines mainline and the regionals regional. If not, then at least work something out that screws the fewest people the least.
The vitriolic condemnation only works to managements' advantage.
However, the posts being made here by a few specific individuals are indeed fraught with hyperbole.
Most of us, on both sides of the issue, are just along for the ride. Expecting one group to commit mass suicide (refuse the flying or strike illegally) acts to further polarize the pilot groups at a time when we need to be working together to defeat the common enemy.
Hopefully those at all the involved carriers who are tasked with figuring out how to make the best from this plate of spaghetti can work something out that keeps the mainlines mainline and the regionals regional. If not, then at least work something out that screws the fewest people the least.
The vitriolic condemnation only works to managements' advantage.
Last edited by Hetman; 07-10-2009 at 06:52 AM.
07-10-2009, 11:56 AM
#114
Banned
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,480
Come on, hetman. "We can't do anything" doesn't cut it. Use some sick time on MKE flights. Fly to rule. Its amazing what you can accomplish when you put your mind to it.
If you want to, that is. RAH pilots obviously don't want to.
If you want to, that is. RAH pilots obviously don't want to.
07-10-2009, 12:56 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Posts: 1,075
The Midwest guys should have struck.
Whoa! Look how easy it is to tell someone else what they should do.
Yes, the RAH pilots could have engaged in an illegal job action. The Midwest pilots could have struck illegally. In practical terms both would have been short lived and would have accomplished little.
Sir, with all due respect, this sucks for everyone. I am defending nobody's position. However, fighting amongst ourselves only serves to divert attention from the real issue. If the mainline is to remain the mainline and the regional is to be a stepping stone to the mainline, regional and mainline pilots must work together to reverse the blurring of the lines perpetrated by the managements. Name-calling and recrimination perpetuate the problem and managements will continue to exploit the polarization they create.
We are in agreement with regard to the problem. Where we differ is that I do not believe that strife, and the continuation thereof through hyperbolic epithets, accusations and demands among and between the respective pilots involved is a solution.
Whoa! Look how easy it is to tell someone else what they should do.
Yes, the RAH pilots could have engaged in an illegal job action. The Midwest pilots could have struck illegally. In practical terms both would have been short lived and would have accomplished little.
Sir, with all due respect, this sucks for everyone. I am defending nobody's position. However, fighting amongst ourselves only serves to divert attention from the real issue. If the mainline is to remain the mainline and the regional is to be a stepping stone to the mainline, regional and mainline pilots must work together to reverse the blurring of the lines perpetrated by the managements. Name-calling and recrimination perpetuate the problem and managements will continue to exploit the polarization they create.
We are in agreement with regard to the problem. Where we differ is that I do not believe that strife, and the continuation thereof through hyperbolic epithets, accusations and demands among and between the respective pilots involved is a solution.
Last edited by Hetman; 07-10-2009 at 01:22 PM.
07-10-2009, 03:18 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
You got that right brother! If it wasn't for the good folks at mainline companies not taking a stand both out of and while in bankruptcy we wouldn't be flying these jets for such low wages.
It's okay though, vent here and blame us. It's all our fault for following a time honored path to the better jobs.
It's okay though, vent here and blame us. It's all our fault for following a time honored path to the better jobs.
Last edited by jsled; 07-10-2009 at 09:22 PM.
07-10-2009, 08:10 PM
#117
On Reserve
Joined APC: May 2009
Position: E170 gearslinger
Posts: 11
There have been some inaccurate statements made in this thread.
Most importantly, "fair and equitable" ONLY applies to the process. The process, per the law, includes negotiations, followed by mediation, followed by binding arbitration. The result does not have to fair, only the process. This is the law, not my opinion.
Secondly, there still can be a staple. Look at the Niccolai (sp?) award. Read what he states regarding pilots on furlough. Again, this is not my opinion, only the most recent example of negotiate, mediate, arbitrate.
Now, in my humble opinion as a F9 pilot, I believe that the seniority lists NEED TO BE MERGED IMMEDIATELY to prevent the future whipsaw that all of you know is about to happen. Now, should we integrate the list as men, or as cowards?
Here is the most professional manner, again in my humble opinion. The Seniority List Integration should be done by relative seniority (percentage of current lists, by seat). Once the SLI is in place, there should be a permanent fence in place for all current aircraft flying and all orders/options available.
Example: F9 pilot (Capt or FO) remains a bus pilot and only an F9 pilot can bid A320/19/18 until our last remaining order is delivered (10 more 320's) if they in fact ever arrive.
Any airbus, boeing, wright flyer, that arrives after the 10th 320 is fair game to anyone and everyone on the new merged list.
If we are all pros this should be done over beers at lunch, in fact I am buying the first and last round. Unfortunately, this will probably end up in arbitration and look something like Niccolai.
Bedford is trying to violate everyone's scope language for a reason, and that reason has not been presented yet. If he wants us to remain seperate, we should immediately begin the process to merge for no other reason than to disrupt whatever the he11 he has planned. Whatever it is, I am pretty sure it is going to suck.
Most importantly, "fair and equitable" ONLY applies to the process. The process, per the law, includes negotiations, followed by mediation, followed by binding arbitration. The result does not have to fair, only the process. This is the law, not my opinion.
Secondly, there still can be a staple. Look at the Niccolai (sp?) award. Read what he states regarding pilots on furlough. Again, this is not my opinion, only the most recent example of negotiate, mediate, arbitrate.
Now, in my humble opinion as a F9 pilot, I believe that the seniority lists NEED TO BE MERGED IMMEDIATELY to prevent the future whipsaw that all of you know is about to happen. Now, should we integrate the list as men, or as cowards?
Here is the most professional manner, again in my humble opinion. The Seniority List Integration should be done by relative seniority (percentage of current lists, by seat). Once the SLI is in place, there should be a permanent fence in place for all current aircraft flying and all orders/options available.
Example: F9 pilot (Capt or FO) remains a bus pilot and only an F9 pilot can bid A320/19/18 until our last remaining order is delivered (10 more 320's) if they in fact ever arrive.
Any airbus, boeing, wright flyer, that arrives after the 10th 320 is fair game to anyone and everyone on the new merged list.
If we are all pros this should be done over beers at lunch, in fact I am buying the first and last round. Unfortunately, this will probably end up in arbitration and look something like Niccolai.
Bedford is trying to violate everyone's scope language for a reason, and that reason has not been presented yet. If he wants us to remain seperate, we should immediately begin the process to merge for no other reason than to disrupt whatever the he11 he has planned. Whatever it is, I am pretty sure it is going to suck.
Good post. Even on my my lackluster pay, I'll by the 2nd and 2nd to last round. Untill then I'll work for a contract that pays me what it should, and many many years down the road maybe we'll get to fly together, making what both of us are worth.
07-14-2009, 02:12 PM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2009
Position: Downwind, headed straight for the rocks, shanghaied aboard the ship of fools.
Posts: 1,128
More like, instruction, 135, 121,unemployment, dream job, unemployment, scum-bag unsafe supplemental carrier, liquidation, scum-bag supplmental cargo carrier that flies broken planes, unemployment, dream job again, threat of unemployment so management can get bonuses, pay cut.
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