United's LOA 03-22 and GoJet
06-12-2009, 08:02 AM
#31
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 737 F/O
Posts: 500
Well, to the rational crowd, it makes perfect sense.
Let's see:
1) UAL ALPA secures jobs/preferential hiring at GoJet for UAL furloughs. Been on unemployment before?
2) Health care. Ever paid for health care out of pocket?
3) Currency. Ever been out of work, and out of currency AND trying to find a job? Furthermore, ever looked outside of aviation for a job?
Really... it's 2009, not 2005 anymore. Trust me on that.
Let's see:
1) UAL ALPA secures jobs/preferential hiring at GoJet for UAL furloughs. Been on unemployment before?
2) Health care. Ever paid for health care out of pocket?
3) Currency. Ever been out of work, and out of currency AND trying to find a job? Furthermore, ever looked outside of aviation for a job?
Really... it's 2009, not 2005 anymore. Trust me on that.
1. No, because I never applied
2. YES
3. YES
So you're telling me that your college educated butt can't find a better job than GoJet???
Seriously what are they paying, 20 maybe 25K to start???
I know times are tough and jobs are hard to come by, but I have plenty of friends who are furloughed from UAL, US Air, ABX, Atlas and not ONE of them would even consider working at that place.
06-12-2009, 08:15 AM
#32
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
I am getting really sick of this argument. You guys act like the United furlougees had a choice whether or not to stay at United or take a job at Gojet. All the furloughees were kicked to the curb like yesterdays trash. Next, do you guys actually really think that if the United furloughees did not take those Gojet jobs the planes wouldn't have come? Do you think glenn would have said, wow we cant get the furloughees to fly their replacement jets, lets order some new narrow body airplane and bring them on property. No, they would have plenty of other guys out on the street flying these airplanes and the planes would have still have shown up. Last, the Trans States/Gojet thing is getting tiring. They had a chance to capture the flying in 05. They turned it down believing they could get this pie in the sky contract flying the airplanes. They democratically voted down the flying. Some times you have to make hard choices to get things you want down the road. Look at what Eagle did. They took a 10 year some what crapy contract just to get all the Eaglets to merge into one company. The guys at Trans States couldn't take a 2 year extention to their contract to capture the 70 flying permently? Also, as far as is a Ual furloughee taking a job from a TSA pilot. I dont see where it is wrong for UAL pilot to take the job on the issue of pay (ie less money that mainline) but yet it is ok for a waterskier to (if they had the airplanes and were expanding while mainline was furloughing).
06-12-2009, 08:43 AM
#33
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
Good on ya! Must be nice to either be independently wealthy, or have another job lined up immediately.
You paid out-of-pocket medical expenses? Good for you. You should know that not everyone is blessed as you are.
Care to share how that went and at what point in your career did you actually do that? How about in 2008/2009? No? Your experiences might be beneficial to those still hopelessly looking while either running or having run out of currency.
My "college-educated butt" is flying a large cabin bizjet, away from unions, away from juvenile bullsh*t, away from Walmart crowds, for WAY more money than many places pay at the top of their game let alone the beginning. However, just because I'm sitting pretty doesn't mean that number of my colleagues are. They're faced with losing their homes, running out of unemployment benefits, medical expenses, providing for their kids, etc. And you sir, are showing some major ignorance in reality of today's job market. I can refer you to a number of furloughed pilots who are college educated, with way more flight time and experience than you, who can't find any flying jobs out there, or even non-flying jobs because they've been flying for the last 10-20 years, and not many employers are willing to spend money training someone like that when they can hire someone fresh out of school already trained in that non-flying position. You need to count your blessings that you're sitting at a reasonably safe airline like SWA, and drop the high-and-mighty preaching to the unfortunate crowd because I don't see you helping anybody - I just see you whining about GoJet and bashing the unfortunate highly-experienced souls going there.
But just for your own entertainment...
According to APC, GoJet pays FO's $1/hour more than TSA, $1 less than Mesaba, and the same as Republic. The fundamental difference between GoJet and any of the above places mentioned is the upgrade time - 1 year or less at GoJet vs. who-knows-when at any other place. Now, it would appear to me that my "college-educated butt" can actually look a little further down the road, y'know... beyond the first day 'n all.
Furthermore, I don't have much sympathy for the "entitlement generation" who got hired with a wet commercial multi ticket and now expects the rest of the world to bow down to them when thousands of HIGHLY qualified pilots are on the street. Frankly, I find it disgusting that our current system would put a 15,000 hour captain whose airline went under to sit in the right seat to some 3000 pilot, and have that 15,000 hour pilot qualify for food stamps all over again, but that's another discussion altogether. Bottom line, I encourage everyone I know that's out of work to apply at GoJet because they won't starve for years like they would with many other regionals if they were even hiring. If nothing else, GoJet puts food on their table, keeps a roof over their heads, pays their medical insurance, and keeps them current so they can find better jobs much easier than they would if they weren't flying at all.
You and I may be sitting pretty... but a number of others aren't. Don't forget that.
2. YES
3. YES
So you're telling me that your college educated butt can't find a better job than GoJet???
Seriously what are they paying, 20 maybe 25K to start???
I know times are tough and jobs are hard to come by, but I have plenty of friends who are furloughed from UAL, US Air, ABX, Atlas and not ONE of them would even consider working at that place.
Seriously what are they paying, 20 maybe 25K to start???
I know times are tough and jobs are hard to come by, but I have plenty of friends who are furloughed from UAL, US Air, ABX, Atlas and not ONE of them would even consider working at that place.
But just for your own entertainment...
According to APC, GoJet pays FO's $1/hour more than TSA, $1 less than Mesaba, and the same as Republic. The fundamental difference between GoJet and any of the above places mentioned is the upgrade time - 1 year or less at GoJet vs. who-knows-when at any other place. Now, it would appear to me that my "college-educated butt" can actually look a little further down the road, y'know... beyond the first day 'n all.
Furthermore, I don't have much sympathy for the "entitlement generation" who got hired with a wet commercial multi ticket and now expects the rest of the world to bow down to them when thousands of HIGHLY qualified pilots are on the street. Frankly, I find it disgusting that our current system would put a 15,000 hour captain whose airline went under to sit in the right seat to some 3000 pilot, and have that 15,000 hour pilot qualify for food stamps all over again, but that's another discussion altogether. Bottom line, I encourage everyone I know that's out of work to apply at GoJet because they won't starve for years like they would with many other regionals if they were even hiring. If nothing else, GoJet puts food on their table, keeps a roof over their heads, pays their medical insurance, and keeps them current so they can find better jobs much easier than they would if they weren't flying at all.
You and I may be sitting pretty... but a number of others aren't. Don't forget that.
06-12-2009, 09:11 AM
#34
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2009
Position: http://rahcontractnow.org/
Posts: 206
A common problem that exists in this country is something I refer to as instant gratification. That explains why you are furloughed from mainline, because it stems from different areas, the most being recent involving the financial sector. Four years ago everyone was able to get loans, credit cards, and mortgages. With a majority of the public constantly seeking instant gratification to satisfy there needs and wants, this country found itself in this financial mess:
"I really want that house, but the only way I can afford a payment is through a 3/1 ARM" Thinking only about the present and not about the future, a majority never asked themselves, what will happen if the rates go back? How will I be able to afford payments?
"Hey I got a credit card, let's go on a shopping spree until I can't afford the minimum payment anymore!"
"I got a car loan, I can now get a brand new car because I can afford the minimum payment"
"Hey, I got a flying job with an alter-ego organization, I get a paycheck and health insurance!"
You, sir, took a job because 'its a job and it's health insurance' and it instantaneously satisfies your needs. God forbid a little hardship or a job outside of aviation because you would need to put a little sacrifice into that. United just announced a Dulles-Madrid route that will not be flown by your airline nor Aer Lingus. How does this make you feel? How do you think the TSA pilots feel? You are correct, whatever happened between them happened a while ago, but look at what is happening today. TSA is ready to strike and now Hulas has options. If he didn't have any options, he would be SOL and start negotiating with TSA. You are contributing to his options and mark my words, when a strike does happen the flying will be transferred over, and if not flown by you, you will be fired. And if you think your union will be there to help you, you have another thing coming.
As a pilot whether with a higher education or not, I have no doubt that you have the skills and ability to pursue something else temporarily until the industry turns around. Law enforcement? FBO? Charter? International flying contract? Railroad? Banking? Boarder Patrol? IT? Management of some sort? There are opportunities out there, especially if one demonstrates the same ambition to pursue those options as they pursued there ratings.
I mean no disrespect towards you; I disrespect the decision you made since it hurt's everyone else in the long run...-just like the decision for people to go over there head with loans 5 years ago. And before you ask me if I know what it's like to be unemployed and without health insurance, yes, I sure do..-I was there for a good amount of time.
Last edited by StrikeTime; 06-12-2009 at 09:23 AM.
06-12-2009, 09:12 AM
#35
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 60
Good on ya! Must be nice to either be independently wealthy, or have another job lined up immediately.
You paid out-of-pocket medical expenses? Good for you. You should know that not everyone is blessed as you are.
Care to share how that went and at what point in your career did you actually do that? How about in 2008/2009? No? Your experiences might be beneficial to those still hopelessly looking while either running or having run out of currency.
My "college-educated butt" is flying a large cabin bizjet, away from unions, away from juvenile bullsh*t, away from Walmart crowds, for WAY more money than many places pay at the top of their game let alone the beginning. However, just because I'm sitting pretty doesn't mean that number of my colleagues are. They're faced with losing their homes, running out of unemployment benefits, medical expenses, providing for their kids, etc. And you sir, are showing some major ignorance in reality of today's job market. I can refer you to a number of furloughed pilots who are college educated, with way more flight time and experience than you, who can't find any flying jobs out there, or even non-flying jobs because they've been flying for the last 10-20 years, and not many employers are willing to spend money training someone like that when they can hire someone fresh out of school already trained in that non-flying position. You need to count your blessings that you're sitting at a reasonably safe airline like SWA, and drop the high-and-mighty preaching to the unfortunate crowd because I don't see you helping anybody - I just see you whining about GoJet and bashing the unfortunate highly-experienced souls going there.
But just for your own entertainment...
According to APC, GoJet pays FO's $1/hour more than TSA, $1 less than Mesaba, and the same as Republic. The fundamental difference between GoJet and any of the above places mentioned is the upgrade time - 1 year or less at GoJet vs. who-knows-when at any other place. Now, it would appear to me that my "college-educated butt" can actually look a little further down the road, y'know... beyond the first day 'n all.
Furthermore, I don't have much sympathy for the "entitlement generation" who got hired with a wet commercial multi ticket and now expects the rest of the world to bow down to them when thousands of HIGHLY qualified pilots are on the street. Frankly, I find it disgusting that our current system would put a 15,000 hour captain whose airline went under to sit in the right seat to some 3000 pilot, and have that 15,000 hour pilot qualify for food stamps all over again, but that's another discussion altogether. Bottom line, I encourage everyone I know that's out of work to apply at GoJet because they won't starve for years like they would with many other regionals if they were even hiring. If nothing else, GoJet puts food on their table, keeps a roof over their heads, pays their medical insurance, and keeps them current so they can find better jobs much easier than they would if they weren't flying at all.
You and I may be sitting pretty... but a number of others aren't. Don't forget that.
You paid out-of-pocket medical expenses? Good for you. You should know that not everyone is blessed as you are.
Care to share how that went and at what point in your career did you actually do that? How about in 2008/2009? No? Your experiences might be beneficial to those still hopelessly looking while either running or having run out of currency.
My "college-educated butt" is flying a large cabin bizjet, away from unions, away from juvenile bullsh*t, away from Walmart crowds, for WAY more money than many places pay at the top of their game let alone the beginning. However, just because I'm sitting pretty doesn't mean that number of my colleagues are. They're faced with losing their homes, running out of unemployment benefits, medical expenses, providing for their kids, etc. And you sir, are showing some major ignorance in reality of today's job market. I can refer you to a number of furloughed pilots who are college educated, with way more flight time and experience than you, who can't find any flying jobs out there, or even non-flying jobs because they've been flying for the last 10-20 years, and not many employers are willing to spend money training someone like that when they can hire someone fresh out of school already trained in that non-flying position. You need to count your blessings that you're sitting at a reasonably safe airline like SWA, and drop the high-and-mighty preaching to the unfortunate crowd because I don't see you helping anybody - I just see you whining about GoJet and bashing the unfortunate highly-experienced souls going there.
But just for your own entertainment...
According to APC, GoJet pays FO's $1/hour more than TSA, $1 less than Mesaba, and the same as Republic. The fundamental difference between GoJet and any of the above places mentioned is the upgrade time - 1 year or less at GoJet vs. who-knows-when at any other place. Now, it would appear to me that my "college-educated butt" can actually look a little further down the road, y'know... beyond the first day 'n all.
Furthermore, I don't have much sympathy for the "entitlement generation" who got hired with a wet commercial multi ticket and now expects the rest of the world to bow down to them when thousands of HIGHLY qualified pilots are on the street. Frankly, I find it disgusting that our current system would put a 15,000 hour captain whose airline went under to sit in the right seat to some 3000 pilot, and have that 15,000 hour pilot qualify for food stamps all over again, but that's another discussion altogether. Bottom line, I encourage everyone I know that's out of work to apply at GoJet because they won't starve for years like they would with many other regionals if they were even hiring. If nothing else, GoJet puts food on their table, keeps a roof over their heads, pays their medical insurance, and keeps them current so they can find better jobs much easier than they would if they weren't flying at all.
You and I may be sitting pretty... but a number of others aren't. Don't forget that.
06-12-2009, 09:25 AM
#36
Line Holder
Joined APC: Nov 2008
Posts: 60
As a pilot whether with a higher education or not, I have no doubt that you the have the skills and ability to pursue something else temporarily until the industry turns around. Law enforcement? FBO? Charter? International flying contract? Railroad? Banking? Boarder Patrol? IT? Management of some sort? There are opportunities out there, especially if one demonstrates the same ambition to pursue those as they pursued there ratings.
.
I am flying an airplane that says UNITED on the side and was put here with the help of ALPA. I do not feel bad about or responsible for events that happened 4 years ago. I have said before and I'll say it again I WILL NOT CROSS A TSA line. If I get fired for that, so be it. That I'm prepared to do. However, I will not sit around with no job and no health insurance while others fill the seats that is MY FLYING for a fight that was not mine and was LOST 4 years ago.
06-12-2009, 10:14 AM
#37
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2005
Position: 737 F/O
Posts: 500
A common problem that exists in this country is something I refer to as instant gratification. That explains why you are furloughed from mainline, because it stems from different areas, the most being recent involving the financial sector. Four years ago everyone was able to get loans, credit cards, and mortgages. With a majority of the public constantly seeking instant gratification to satisfy there needs and wants, this country found itself in this financial mess:
"I really want that house, but the only way I can afford a payment is through a 3/1 ARM" Thinking only about the present and not about the future, a majority never asked themselves, what will happen if the rates go back? How will I be able to afford payments?
"Hey I got a credit card, let's go on a shopping spree until I can't afford the minimum payment anymore!"
"I got a car loan, I can now get a brand new car because I can afford the minimum payment"
"Hey, I got a flying job with an alter-ego organization, I get a paycheck and health insurance!"
You, sir, took a job because 'its a job and it's health insurance' and it instantaneously satisfies your needs. God forbid a little hardship or a job outside of aviation because you would need to put a little sacrifice into that. United just announced a Dulles-Madrid route that will not be flown by your airline nor Aer Lingus. How does this make you feel? How do you think the TSA pilots feel? You are correct, whatever happened between them happened a while ago, but look at what is happening today. TSA is ready to strike and now Hulas has options. If he didn't have any options, he would be SOL and start negotiating with TSA. You are contributing to his options and mark my words, when a strike does happen the flying will be transferred over, and if not flown by you, you will be fired. And if you think your union will be there to help you, you have another thing coming.
As a pilot whether with a higher education or not, I have no doubt that you have the skills and ability to pursue something else temporarily until the industry turns around. Law enforcement? FBO? Charter? International flying contract? Railroad? Banking? Boarder Patrol? IT? Management of some sort? There are opportunities out there, especially if one demonstrates the same ambition to pursue those options as they pursued there ratings.
I mean no disrespect towards you; I disrespect the decision you made since it hurt's everyone else in the long run...-just like the decision for people to go over there head with loans 5 years ago. And before you ask me if I know what it's like to be unemployed and without health insurance, yes, I sure do..-I was there for a good amount of time.
Now that's an excellent post!!!!!
06-12-2009, 11:07 AM
#38
Line Holder
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: Furloughed
Posts: 28
I am flying an airplane that says UNITED on the side and was put here with the help of ALPA. I do not feel bad about or responsible for events that happened 4 years ago. I have said before and I'll say it again I WILL NOT CROSS A TSA line. If I get fired for that, so be it. That I'm prepared to do. However, I will not sit around with no job and no health insurance while others fill the seats that is MY FLYING for a fight that was not mine and was LOST 4 years ago.
With that said, a point that I think is missing from this whole discussion is that the agreement that allows UAL pilot's to go to GoJet was negotiated as part of the agreement that allowed 70 seat RJ's(at the very least EMB170's) under UAL colors in the first place. This was prior to Skywest, RAH, Gojet or any other carrier being awarded the flying. A stipulation of the original agreement was X number of pilots per A/C were offered employment (almost like a very weak flow back). I don't agree with what is happening at GoJet, but are furloughed UAL pilots really taking TSA jobs, since these same offers would have occurred regardless of who is operating the aircraft.
Another aspect of this whole affair I fail to understand is how GoJet is taking TSA's flying but TSA is not taking UAL's flying. In both cases the respective unions negotiated with their respective companies to secure/maintain these routes. In both cases and for very different reasons they were not able to come to terms with their respective managements and the flying went elsewhere. Seems like the same thing to me, in both cases the flying was transferred to a lower cost alternative. I support what TSA is trying to accomplish and hope they succeed, but I feel like saying "welcome to the club". Outsourcing in this industry seems to have very different perspectives depending on which side you sit.
BTW, I know a few of you will say UAL gave up the flying, in my mind negotiating is all about leverage. In bankruptcy (and with a labor-unfriendly administration) leverage is in very short supply.
WJI
06-12-2009, 02:19 PM
#39
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2008
Posts: 999
Alright, could someone enlighten me how a furloughed first year UAL pilot is going to make as much at GoJet on first year FO pay?
And if making the same requires becoming a captain, could someone explain to me where all these GoJet captain are going to account for attrition or how many 10's of airplanes GoJet is going to get?
It just seems to me that UAL furloughs (like every 300 hr kid) are expecting this 4 month upgrade. I don't get it.
And if making the same requires becoming a captain, could someone explain to me where all these GoJet captain are going to account for attrition or how many 10's of airplanes GoJet is going to get?
It just seems to me that UAL furloughs (like every 300 hr kid) are expecting this 4 month upgrade. I don't get it.
06-12-2009, 02:23 PM
#40
Gets Weekend Reserve
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 3,764
As a fellow UAL furlough, I have encountered many of the same results in my job search (with a somewhat outdated Master's degree). For personal reasons (and the fact I have a spouse who was able to return to work), I have not reached the point where I am considering GoJet.
With that said, a point that I think is missing from this whole discussion is that the agreement that allows UAL pilot's to go to GoJet was negotiated as part of the agreement that allowed 70 seat RJ's(at the very least EMB170's) under UAL colors in the first place. This was prior to Skywest, RAH, Gojet or any other carrier being awarded the flying. A stipulation of the original agreement was X number of pilots per A/C were offered employment (almost like a very weak flow back). I don't agree with what is happening at GoJet, but are furloughed UAL pilots really taking TSA jobs, since these same offers would have occurred regardless of who is operating the aircraft.
Another aspect of this whole affair I fail to understand is how GoJet is taking TSA's flying but TSA is not taking UAL's flying. In both cases the respective unions negotiated with their respective companies to secure/maintain these routes. In both cases and for very different reasons they were not able to come to terms with their respective managements and the flying went elsewhere. Seems like the same thing to me, in both cases the flying was transferred to a lower cost alternative. I support what TSA is trying to accomplish and hope they succeed, but I feel like saying "welcome to the club". Outsourcing in this industry seems to have very different perspectives depending on which side you sit.
BTW, I know a few of you will say UAL gave up the flying, in my mind negotiating is all about leverage. In bankruptcy (and with a labor-unfriendly administration) leverage is in very short supply.
WJI
With that said, a point that I think is missing from this whole discussion is that the agreement that allows UAL pilot's to go to GoJet was negotiated as part of the agreement that allowed 70 seat RJ's(at the very least EMB170's) under UAL colors in the first place. This was prior to Skywest, RAH, Gojet or any other carrier being awarded the flying. A stipulation of the original agreement was X number of pilots per A/C were offered employment (almost like a very weak flow back). I don't agree with what is happening at GoJet, but are furloughed UAL pilots really taking TSA jobs, since these same offers would have occurred regardless of who is operating the aircraft.
Another aspect of this whole affair I fail to understand is how GoJet is taking TSA's flying but TSA is not taking UAL's flying. In both cases the respective unions negotiated with their respective companies to secure/maintain these routes. In both cases and for very different reasons they were not able to come to terms with their respective managements and the flying went elsewhere. Seems like the same thing to me, in both cases the flying was transferred to a lower cost alternative. I support what TSA is trying to accomplish and hope they succeed, but I feel like saying "welcome to the club". Outsourcing in this industry seems to have very different perspectives depending on which side you sit.
BTW, I know a few of you will say UAL gave up the flying, in my mind negotiating is all about leverage. In bankruptcy (and with a labor-unfriendly administration) leverage is in very short supply.
WJI
Originally Posted by 250 or point 65
Alright, could someone enlighten me how a furloughed first year UAL pilot is going to make as much at GoJet on first year FO pay?
And if making the same requires becoming a captain, could someone explain to me where all these GoJet captain are going to account for attrition or how many 10's of airplanes GoJet is going to get?
It just seems to me that UAL furloughs (like every 300 hr kid) are expecting this 4 month upgrade. I don't get it.
And if making the same requires becoming a captain, could someone explain to me where all these GoJet captain are going to account for attrition or how many 10's of airplanes GoJet is going to get?
It just seems to me that UAL furloughs (like every 300 hr kid) are expecting this 4 month upgrade. I don't get it.
