United's LOA 03-22 and GoJet
08-19-2009, 03:33 PM
#113
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: CRJ, CR7, A320, B737
Posts: 229
874 are currently on the street. The rest (to get to the 1,450 mark) happen in October and November, as the final 21 737's are sent packing.
08-19-2009, 03:37 PM
#114
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
One thing you all need to understand is that UAL ALPA didn't work out a deal with GoJet per se, the deal is to place UAL furloughees at any UAX airline that is hiring. If SkyWest were hiring, we'd be going there. If Republic was hiring, we'd be going there. GoJet just happens to be the UAX carrier that is hiring now so they now fall under the LOA. This LOA is from 2003.
The really sad thing is that the LOA is a piece of Sh$t.
Any job for a UA furlough should have been to a LEFT seat at any Express carrier that has enjoyed expansion at the expense of UA jobs...period.
I blame both an MC that had tunnel vision on saving the A Plan and every pilot that voted yes to include C2000 (70 seaters).
Meant as no disrespect to either seat at any express caririer but remember that your job exists only through the short sightedness and greed of poorly informed past UA pilots who along with other legacy carriers helped Fu(k up the whole industry and career for pilots everywhere.
No, you're not more cost effective no matter what metric you look at, even the 170. That is especially true when you factor UA paying for fuel, helping or actually leasing RJs. guaranteeing a specified margin to the express company regardless of perfomance (eg Mesa), seat mile cost, and the list goes on.
Express guys and gals need to understand that you are a tool used by UA or any major to EVENTUALLY lower the bottom line. Gradual increase in size of aircraft, and all other permiatations leads to you guys flying aircraft with B737-500 seating for a small fraction of mainline. That is assuming mainline pilots don't fianally draw a line that will not be crossed.
Once mainline and express truly believe that they are being played and are in a bad position that can be corrected, then you'll all see things improve. Yeah, express jobs will be sacrificed to "rebuild" at the true UA (no fancy "almost paint jobs and marketing schemes).
Sadly, I doubt UA will survive long enough for it to occur but it is an industry problem that needs a strategy rather than ALPA Natl courting express for dues money.
If express pilots want a future other than the current airline I'd recommend "reverse" scope. Yes, have protections for mergers, alter ego flying, etc., but if you want to aid the career, add no pilot of xyz airline will operate an aircraft larger than x weight or70 seats. If you guys do that....we'll all get to watch the situation change. That, and demand fair pay for what you do and the responsibility/liabilty you have.
Rant over.
If you're curious, never furloughed but took a voluntary after 12 years.
Frats,
Lee
Last edited by LeeFXDWG; 08-19-2009 at 03:46 PM. Reason: typos
08-19-2009, 04:26 PM
#115
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Skeptical
Posts: 378
[quote=LeeFXDWG;665008]Meant as no disrespect to either seat at any express caririer but remember that your job exists only through the short sightedness and greed of poorly informed past UA pilots
Following your line of thought, could you explain why such a pilot whose short-sighted and greedy decisions have destroyed not only his own career prospects but also sold out those who would have followed in his footsteps deserve to be rewarded with a Captain's seat in what shreds of this career remain?
We all have to pay a heavy price for decisions mainline pilot groups have made in the past, especially those of us with 30+ years of this career ahead of us...
Following your line of thought, could you explain why such a pilot whose short-sighted and greedy decisions have destroyed not only his own career prospects but also sold out those who would have followed in his footsteps deserve to be rewarded with a Captain's seat in what shreds of this career remain?
We all have to pay a heavy price for decisions mainline pilot groups have made in the past, especially those of us with 30+ years of this career ahead of us...
Last edited by IC ALL; 08-19-2009 at 04:54 PM. Reason: removed deleted portion of quote
08-19-2009, 05:19 PM
#116
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
[QUOTE=Golden Bear;665030]
I think what Lee is refering to is the jets for jobs deal that UAL pilots got as a result of the bankruptcy agreement (2003) that allows UAL pilots to go to work for the 70 seat operators at 2nd year pay. Ain't it great to do OE for the UA guys that skip 1st year pay? He correctly points out that it is too bad that the furloughees cannot slip right into the left seat like the flowbacks at American and now Delta (with Compass). Perhaps UA can work a deal with the next 70 seat providers. You know, tell the CEO "you can fly em, but only if furloughed UA guys get first dibs on the left seat". Somebody would bite. Maybe GOJET or the next fleabag scab outfit, right? Fee for departure is all about the lowest bidder. Good luck on the career.
Meant as no disrespect to either seat at any express caririer but remember that your job exists only through the short sightedness and greed of poorly informed past UA pilots
Following your line of thought, could you explain why such a pilot whose short-sighted and greedy decisions have destroyed not only his own career prospects but also sold out those who would have followed in his footsteps deserve to be rewarded with a Captain's seat in what shreds of this career remain?
We all have to pay a heavy price for decisions mainline pilot groups have made in the past, especially those of us with 30+ years of this career ahead of us...
Following your line of thought, could you explain why such a pilot whose short-sighted and greedy decisions have destroyed not only his own career prospects but also sold out those who would have followed in his footsteps deserve to be rewarded with a Captain's seat in what shreds of this career remain?
We all have to pay a heavy price for decisions mainline pilot groups have made in the past, especially those of us with 30+ years of this career ahead of us...
08-19-2009, 05:26 PM
#117
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: 737 CA
Posts: 2,750
[I]/I] blame both an MC that had tunnel vision on saving the A Plan and every pilot that voted yes to include C2000 (70 seaters).>>>
Lee, I don't now why you keep saying this. The 70 seaters were never on property until the bankruptcy, PERIOD, DOT. I have showed you contract language in both another thread and a PM. I don't know why your memory is soo bad. You admit above it was "tunnel vision on saving the A plan." The A plan was in jeopardy in 2000? Come on, man. That was 2003. But thanks for playing.
Lee, I don't now why you keep saying this. The 70 seaters were never on property until the bankruptcy, PERIOD, DOT. I have showed you contract language in both another thread and a PM. I don't know why your memory is soo bad. You admit above it was "tunnel vision on saving the A plan." The A plan was in jeopardy in 2000? Come on, man. That was 2003. But thanks for playing.
08-20-2009, 12:50 PM
#118
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
[QUOTE=jsled;665076][I]/I] blame both an MC that had tunnel vision on saving the A Plan and every pilot that voted yes to include C2000 (70 seaters).>>>
Oops I did a bad job of stringing things together. Concessions began in C2000, C2003 furthered the situation. 70 seaters and the rest of the issues in 03 with "the gun to our head" was a contract with one purpose, saving an A Plan that was already dead in the eyes of the company despite what they said in public. We'll never know what the judge would have done had we said enough, especially on round 2. The fact is Whiteferg was motivated by one thing and demonstrated by signing the E170 LOA without MEC or pilot input.
As for the express issue, do you disagree?
Frats
Oops I did a bad job of stringing things together. Concessions began in C2000, C2003 furthered the situation. 70 seaters and the rest of the issues in 03 with "the gun to our head" was a contract with one purpose, saving an A Plan that was already dead in the eyes of the company despite what they said in public. We'll never know what the judge would have done had we said enough, especially on round 2. The fact is Whiteferg was motivated by one thing and demonstrated by signing the E170 LOA without MEC or pilot input.
As for the express issue, do you disagree?
Frats
08-20-2009, 02:17 PM
#119
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
[QUOTE=jsled;665076][I]/I] blame both an MC that had tunnel vision on saving the A Plan and every pilot that voted yes to include C2000 (70 seaters).>>>
Oops I did a bad job of stringing things together. Concessions began in C2000, C2003 furthered the situation. 70 seaters and the rest of the issues in 03 with "the gun to our head" was a contract with one purpose, saving an A Plan that was already dead in the eyes of the company despite what they said in public. We'll never know what the judge would have done had we said enough, especially on round 2. The fact is Whiteferg was motivated by one thing and demonstrated by signing the E170 LOA without MEC or pilot input.
As for the express issue, do you disagree?
Frats
Oops I did a bad job of stringing things together. Concessions began in C2000, C2003 furthered the situation. 70 seaters and the rest of the issues in 03 with "the gun to our head" was a contract with one purpose, saving an A Plan that was already dead in the eyes of the company despite what they said in public. We'll never know what the judge would have done had we said enough, especially on round 2. The fact is Whiteferg was motivated by one thing and demonstrated by signing the E170 LOA without MEC or pilot input.
As for the express issue, do you disagree?
Frats
08-21-2009, 06:24 PM
#120
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: B737 CAPT IAH
Posts: 1,130
[QUOTE=Golden Bear;665030]
Now, you must not have read the post.
One, I said no disrespect to rj pilots. Two, I said you, if you are an rj pilot are a tool, widget, whatever, for mgmt at whatever company you fly for and basically fall in line to fill the vacancies in lift created by short sighted "leaders" at my former airline and others.
Look, I'm a former AF type with time in everything from the F-16 to the U-2. Unless your CV contains anything close, I win the biggest D!ck war. I've seen more than you can imagine......a rag head under the pipper and a sunrise above 75000.
And, that wasn't my point. Should a UA furloughed pilot get the left seAt at xyz, you bet. You know it because if you are an rj pilot, the job only exists but for the stupidity of folks in charge here when you were in high school.
Not a slam on you. Stating the same facts I stated as an ALPA volunteer before giving up on the paradigm changing.
Meant as no disrespect to either seat at any express caririer but remember that your job exists only through the short sightedness and greed of poorly informed past UA pilots
Following your line of thought, could you explain why such a pilot whose short-sighted and greedy decisions have destroyed not only his own career prospects but also sold out those who would have followed in his footsteps deserve to be rewarded with a Captain's seat in what shreds of this career remain?
We all have to pay a heavy price for decisions mainline pilot groups have made in the past, especially those of us with 30+ years of this career ahead of us...
Following your line of thought, could you explain why such a pilot whose short-sighted and greedy decisions have destroyed not only his own career prospects but also sold out those who would have followed in his footsteps deserve to be rewarded with a Captain's seat in what shreds of this career remain?
We all have to pay a heavy price for decisions mainline pilot groups have made in the past, especially those of us with 30+ years of this career ahead of us...
One, I said no disrespect to rj pilots. Two, I said you, if you are an rj pilot are a tool, widget, whatever, for mgmt at whatever company you fly for and basically fall in line to fill the vacancies in lift created by short sighted "leaders" at my former airline and others.
Look, I'm a former AF type with time in everything from the F-16 to the U-2. Unless your CV contains anything close, I win the biggest D!ck war. I've seen more than you can imagine......a rag head under the pipper and a sunrise above 75000.
And, that wasn't my point. Should a UA furloughed pilot get the left seAt at xyz, you bet. You know it because if you are an rj pilot, the job only exists but for the stupidity of folks in charge here when you were in high school.
Not a slam on you. Stating the same facts I stated as an ALPA volunteer before giving up on the paradigm changing.
