More sad Midwest news...
04-29-2009, 05:40 PM
#181
Looking for a laugh
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 4,099
How would you characterize the 17% (I could be off by a % or 2) pay increase you and nwa get (over nwa's parity). I don't see how that has anything to do with allowing the merger to be completed or ironing out the differences. That sounds like headway towards regaining ground unless you had it in your last contract.
Maybe snide was the wrong word to use, but definitely uninformed. Or misinformed. The problem is that you are on the outside looking in and trying to make statements without all the facts in front of you. While I'm sure you feel that you do have all the facts straight, you don't. But like most pilots, that fact never stopped any of us before.
04-29-2009, 05:49 PM
#182
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 798
Well, at AA there still is a pretty good pension (and funded well too). Would the pilots of AA "willingly" give that up for a new 401(k) or some other retirement vehicle just to control scope and regional jets completely ?
My guess is no.
Of course, if emotion gets out of control and AMR flees to the courts, then both a loss of pension AND a whacking of scope could occur. I guess you could say in this scenario they willingly gave up both.
As far as other majors, I haven't heard of a single one interested in one list with their regionals or officially declaring that ALL flying must be returned to them (again whether it was theirs in the first place or not).
My guess is no.
Of course, if emotion gets out of control and AMR flees to the courts, then both a loss of pension AND a whacking of scope could occur. I guess you could say in this scenario they willingly gave up both.
As far as other majors, I haven't heard of a single one interested in one list with their regionals or officially declaring that ALL flying must be returned to them (again whether it was theirs in the first place or not).
Have AA pilots read up on the United "defined benefit plan".
The money in "defined benefit plans" are like ripe fruit waiting to be picked once an airline gets in finance trouble. These days I vote for the "defined contribution plan" in the airline industry.
Last edited by MD80; 04-29-2009 at 06:05 PM.
04-29-2009, 08:28 PM
#183
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
I think their is a easy answer.
A pension should be paid as a percent of pay, "Defined Contribution". If you are flying a 70 seat aircraft your pension contribution would be smaller and as you move into bigger aircraft (higher pay) the pension contribution would grow.
I question if "Defined Benefit" plans will still be offered in future contracts or worth having after seeing the history at United.
A pension should be paid as a percent of pay, "Defined Contribution". If you are flying a 70 seat aircraft your pension contribution would be smaller and as you move into bigger aircraft (higher pay) the pension contribution would grow.
I question if "Defined Benefit" plans will still be offered in future contracts or worth having after seeing the history at United.
It's cheaper doing it their way (which is why they are). The future is set (sadly) and all we can do is watch it happen. Well...........we can also contine to hope to be invited to one of the private cocktail parties in Herndon celebrating the good life at the expense of saps.
04-30-2009, 02:25 AM
#184
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Up, Up, Down, Down, Left, Right, Left, Right, B, A, Start.....
Posts: 193
Is this really a Delta/Republic deal?
If Republic buys out TPG then it would make Republic(53%) and Delta(47%). This could be the original formula to develope a low cost 100 seat national airline equal to Southwest, JetBlue or AirTran.
DALPA better be watching the developments at Midwest.
If Republic buys out TPG then it would make Republic(53%) and Delta(47%). This could be the original formula to develope a low cost 100 seat national airline equal to Southwest, JetBlue or AirTran.
DALPA better be watching the developments at Midwest.
Are there talks of RAH buying out TPG?
04-30-2009, 04:12 AM
#185
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Posts: 138
Blaming it all on the Republic pilots is stupid. Anyone who does so is clueless about our legal options as unionized pilots.
04-30-2009, 07:50 AM
#186
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: E-170 Airbender
Posts: 341
04-30-2009, 08:54 AM
#187
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2009
Position: awkward
Posts: 239
I don't blame Republic pilots, but the fact remains that they replaced me. They aren't scabs, because we didn't walk off the job when management dropped the bomb on us. Yes, it would've been an illegal job action, and it would've angered the beast in Herndon, but it would've also allowed the Republic pilots to contractually refuse to replace us. Instead we followed the rules and allowed management to hold a gun to our heads, while replacing us with pilots who made less than half of what we were making.
We have weak scope language in our contract, but we do have solid subcontracting language for this very situation, which is what we took to arbitration. The arbitrator disregarded the very language in question, and issued a ruling that was basically a restatement of management's defense.
So what's next? With the gun still pointed at our heads while we're in section 6 negotiations, I don't have hope for a decent contract, and management wants these crappy rates all the way out to 117 seats. If it really sucks, what do you think our owners (Delta) might try to do with it? The Delta pilots granted a carve-out for Midwest in their contract, that I think got moved to code share? The door is open for us to whipsaw Delta mainline. I've tried to tell Delta pilots this, but they still insist their scope will protect them from that. Don't be so sure. I was sure the subcontracting grievance was a slam dunk, but I guess management just had to pass a bigger bag of money under the table.
This is a battle to push the boundary between mainline and RJ rates way past 100 seats. This degrades the profession for every one of us, and it is not stopping with Midwest.
I don't know when Republic's contract is ammendable, but they could help by taking Midwest's pay rates for their openers. You guys aren't scabs, but don't be surprised by resentment. I think there will be a lot of that going around until we grow enough backbone to take a stand to demand real rates for every jet, regardless of size.
We have weak scope language in our contract, but we do have solid subcontracting language for this very situation, which is what we took to arbitration. The arbitrator disregarded the very language in question, and issued a ruling that was basically a restatement of management's defense.
So what's next? With the gun still pointed at our heads while we're in section 6 negotiations, I don't have hope for a decent contract, and management wants these crappy rates all the way out to 117 seats. If it really sucks, what do you think our owners (Delta) might try to do with it? The Delta pilots granted a carve-out for Midwest in their contract, that I think got moved to code share? The door is open for us to whipsaw Delta mainline. I've tried to tell Delta pilots this, but they still insist their scope will protect them from that. Don't be so sure. I was sure the subcontracting grievance was a slam dunk, but I guess management just had to pass a bigger bag of money under the table.
This is a battle to push the boundary between mainline and RJ rates way past 100 seats. This degrades the profession for every one of us, and it is not stopping with Midwest.
I don't know when Republic's contract is ammendable, but they could help by taking Midwest's pay rates for their openers. You guys aren't scabs, but don't be surprised by resentment. I think there will be a lot of that going around until we grow enough backbone to take a stand to demand real rates for every jet, regardless of size.
04-30-2009, 11:02 AM
#188
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: 727 VIP Left
Posts: 141
[quote=3XLoser;603536]I don't blame Republic pilots, but the fact remains that they replaced me. They aren't scabs, because we didn't walk off the job when management dropped the bomb on us. Yes, it would've been an illegal job action, and it would've angered the beast in Herndon, but it would've also allowed the Republic pilots to contractually refuse to replace us. Instead we followed the rules and allowed management to hold a gun to our heads, while replacing us with pilots who made less than half of what we were making.
We have weak scope language in our contract, but we do have solid subcontracting language for this very situation, which is what we took to arbitration. The arbitrator disregarded the very language in question, and issued a ruling that was basically a restatement of management's defense.
So what's next? With the gun still pointed at our heads while we're in section 6 negotiations, I don't have hope for a decent contract, and management wants these crappy rates all the way out to 117 seats. If it really sucks, what do you think our owners (Delta) might try to do with it? The Delta pilots granted a carve-out for Midwest in their contract, that I think got moved to code share? The door is open for us to whipsaw Delta mainline. I've tried to tell Delta pilots this, but they still insist their scope will protect them from that. Don't be so sure. I was sure the subcontracting grievance was a slam dunk, but I guess management just had to pass a bigger bag of money under the table.
This is a battle to push the boundary between mainline and RJ rates way past 100 seats. This degrades the profession for every one of us, and it is not stopping with Midwest.
I don't know when Republic's contract is ammendable, but they could help by taking Midwest's pay rates for their openers. You guys aren't scabs, but don't be surprised by resentment. I think there will be a lot of that going around until we grow enough backbone to take a stand to demand real rates for every jet, regardless of size.[/quote]
That about sums it up, well said!
We have weak scope language in our contract, but we do have solid subcontracting language for this very situation, which is what we took to arbitration. The arbitrator disregarded the very language in question, and issued a ruling that was basically a restatement of management's defense.
So what's next? With the gun still pointed at our heads while we're in section 6 negotiations, I don't have hope for a decent contract, and management wants these crappy rates all the way out to 117 seats. If it really sucks, what do you think our owners (Delta) might try to do with it? The Delta pilots granted a carve-out for Midwest in their contract, that I think got moved to code share? The door is open for us to whipsaw Delta mainline. I've tried to tell Delta pilots this, but they still insist their scope will protect them from that. Don't be so sure. I was sure the subcontracting grievance was a slam dunk, but I guess management just had to pass a bigger bag of money under the table.
This is a battle to push the boundary between mainline and RJ rates way past 100 seats. This degrades the profession for every one of us, and it is not stopping with Midwest.
I don't know when Republic's contract is ammendable, but they could help by taking Midwest's pay rates for their openers. You guys aren't scabs, but don't be surprised by resentment. I think there will be a lot of that going around until we grow enough backbone to take a stand to demand real rates for every jet, regardless of size.[/quote]
That about sums it up, well said!
04-30-2009, 12:01 PM
#189
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Posts: 324
I don't know when Republic's contract is ammendable, but they could help by taking Midwest's pay rates for their openers. You guys aren't scabs, but don't be surprised by resentment. I think there will be a lot of that going around until we grow enough backbone to take a stand to demand real rates for every jet, regardless of size.
Working on it. We were in heavy negotiations until our local was placed in trusteeship. Pay rate is a huge point of contention in our next contract. I doubt it will be as good as Midwest, but it should be a huge increase.
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