More sad Midwest news...
04-28-2009, 07:05 AM
#151
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Posts: 798
A B-scale?
A group of pilots, "perpetually confined to a second-tier status" - hey, we already have that today - it's called regionals. American and the APA got rid of the 'b-scale', and I doubt any union, least of all ALPA, would ever agree to it again.
PS- What about if mainline took it ALL back, and put all the narrow-body aircraft on a B-scale (you know, that's all the regionals fly anyway, right?)? Or what about if all the widebody drivers take a paycut to sweeten the deal of bringing everyone onto the same list? Are YOU willing to sacrifice some in the name of unity, or just willing to volunteer others for the task? It's a question each of us must ask ourselves if we ever expect things to change.
A group of pilots, "perpetually confined to a second-tier status" - hey, we already have that today - it's called regionals. American and the APA got rid of the 'b-scale', and I doubt any union, least of all ALPA, would ever agree to it again.
PS- What about if mainline took it ALL back, and put all the narrow-body aircraft on a B-scale (you know, that's all the regionals fly anyway, right?)? Or what about if all the widebody drivers take a paycut to sweeten the deal of bringing everyone onto the same list? Are YOU willing to sacrifice some in the name of unity, or just willing to volunteer others for the task? It's a question each of us must ask ourselves if we ever expect things to change.
What I am saying is...
1. you have a pilot group with one seniority list
2. the pilots flying 300 seat aircraft can be paid better because of the volume of passengers per flight hour
3. the more junior pilots fly 70 seat aircraft and for that reason the pay is less.
4. life style should be the same... trip reg, duty reg, days-off, percent of pay into 401k for retirement, vacation weeks
5. as you get seniority you bid to bigger equipment
6. one contract.
7. no whip-sawing of one pilot group against another
04-28-2009, 07:13 AM
#152
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Perhaps we're misunderstanding each other. Airlines (corporations that is) "determines" the flying they do. Pilot groups do not. I doubt any mainline pilot group has "determined" that hundreds of 70 seat jetliners (and now 90 seaters) should be flown by others. At least, not WILLINGLY.
No, OTHERS determined it for them by choosing to NOT contract it to them. You see, when you really look at it, we're ALL flying contracted work. But when one is the first to be contracted that work, there tends to be an assumption of "owned turf" (kinda like a pekinese ****ing on a lamp post).
Please deposit another quarter.
No, OTHERS determined it for them by choosing to NOT contract it to them. You see, when you really look at it, we're ALL flying contracted work. But when one is the first to be contracted that work, there tends to be an assumption of "owned turf" (kinda like a pekinese ****ing on a lamp post).
Please deposit another quarter.
Mainline pilots have determined (allowed) that it's ok if other airlines fly 70 and some 90 seat airplanes. They gave it up in scope. They all gave it up WILLINGLY too. No one, that I know of, had it taken from them if they had scope protection.
04-28-2009, 07:18 AM
#153
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
What I am saying is...
1. you have a pilot group with one seniority list
2. the pilots flying 300 seat aircraft can be paid better because of the volume of passengers per flight hour
3. the more junior pilots fly 70 seat aircraft and for that reason the pay is less.
4. life style should be the same... trip reg, duty reg, days-off, percent of pay into 401k for retirement, vacation weeks
5. as you get seniority you bid to bigger equipment
6. one contract.
7. no whip-sawing of one pilot group against another
1. you have a pilot group with one seniority list
2. the pilots flying 300 seat aircraft can be paid better because of the volume of passengers per flight hour
3. the more junior pilots fly 70 seat aircraft and for that reason the pay is less.
4. life style should be the same... trip reg, duty reg, days-off, percent of pay into 401k for retirement, vacation weeks
5. as you get seniority you bid to bigger equipment
6. one contract.
7. no whip-sawing of one pilot group against another
NO management team would ever agree to a pension plan for pilots who fly regional jets, especially when none of the compititon does. So then there are three choices :
1. Agree to eliminate the pension plan (HIGHLY unlikely).
2. Regional pilots remain seperate (the "us and them" status quo remains to neither pilot groups benefit).
3. No pension for those flying regional aircraft and.........well, a B-scale type arrangement WOULD exist which would only divide the pilot groups into another "us and them" scenario and ........well, again to neither pilot groups benefit.
Still no easy answers.
04-28-2009, 07:27 AM
#154
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
What about the pension issue ?
NO management team would ever agree to a pension plan for pilots who fly regional jets, especially when none of the compititon does. So then there are three choices :
1. Agree to eliminate the pension plan (HIGHLY unlikely).
2. Regional pilots remain seperate (the "us and them" status quo remains to neither pilot groups benefit).
3. No pension for those flying regional aircraft and.........well, a B-scale type arrangement WOULD exist which would only divide the pilot groups into another "us and them" scenario and ........well, again to neither pilot groups benefit.
Still no easy answers.
NO management team would ever agree to a pension plan for pilots who fly regional jets, especially when none of the compititon does. So then there are three choices :
1. Agree to eliminate the pension plan (HIGHLY unlikely).
2. Regional pilots remain seperate (the "us and them" status quo remains to neither pilot groups benefit).
3. No pension for those flying regional aircraft and.........well, a B-scale type arrangement WOULD exist which would only divide the pilot groups into another "us and them" scenario and ........well, again to neither pilot groups benefit.
Still no easy answers.
04-28-2009, 07:30 AM
#155
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Correct it's management that determines the flying. Mainline contracts determined which airplanes could be flown by other companies via scope language. If you didn't have it then any of their flying could be outsourced.
Mainline pilots have determined (allowed) that it's ok if other airlines fly 70 and some 90 seat airplanes. They gave it up in scope. They all gave it up WILLINGLY too. No one, that I know of, had it taken from them if they had scope protection.
Mainline pilots have determined (allowed) that it's ok if other airlines fly 70 and some 90 seat airplanes. They gave it up in scope. They all gave it up WILLINGLY too. No one, that I know of, had it taken from them if they had scope protection.
UAL is looking more and more like they're going to eventually have to do another trip to the BK process as no airline in their right mind would hitch their horse to this hopelessly broken buggy. To prevent that, their pilots may technically be willingly relax more scope, but it would not be their choice. AA might end there as well if forced into a financially untenable corner with similar results, unless the current "line in the sand" philosophy by the APA is abandoned and a more realisitic compromise is adopted.
Heck, I don't WANT further scope relaxation, but what we all want is no longer possible. In the mid 90's perhaps, but now all that can be done is to try to control the cancers growth as slow as possible.
A cure is out of the question. Dr. ALPA didn't show up for surgery in 1992 and now the patient cannot be cured. Chances are more and more scope WILL be given "willingly", but not by choice.
04-28-2009, 07:35 AM
#156
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
My guess is no.
Of course, if emotion gets out of control and AMR flees to the courts, then both a loss of pension AND a whacking of scope could occur. I guess you could say in this scenario they willingly gave up both.
As far as other majors, I haven't heard of a single one interested in one list with their regionals or officially declaring that ALL flying must be returned to them (again whether it was theirs in the first place or not).
04-28-2009, 07:41 AM
#157
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
A B-scale? Yeah, that'll end the whipsaw for sure. With one group of pilots on one payscale and another group on a different one, how will management ever create a fracture in that unified front? 
Did we forget American Airlines' Robert Crandall and Don Carty in the late 1980's?
A group of pilots, "perpetually confined to a second-tier status" - hey, we already have that today - it's called regionals. American and the APA got rid of the 'b-scale', and I doubt any union, least of all ALPA, would ever agree to it again.
PS- What about if mainline took it ALL back, and put all the narrow-body aircraft on a B-scale (you know, that's all the regionals fly anyway, right?)? Or what about if all the widebody drivers take a paycut to sweeten the deal of bringing everyone onto the same list? Are YOU willing to sacrifice some in the name of unity, or just willing to volunteer others for the task? It's a question each of us must ask ourselves if we ever expect things to change.
Did we forget American Airlines' Robert Crandall and Don Carty in the late 1980's?
A group of pilots, "perpetually confined to a second-tier status" - hey, we already have that today - it's called regionals. American and the APA got rid of the 'b-scale', and I doubt any union, least of all ALPA, would ever agree to it again.
PS- What about if mainline took it ALL back, and put all the narrow-body aircraft on a B-scale (you know, that's all the regionals fly anyway, right?)? Or what about if all the widebody drivers take a paycut to sweeten the deal of bringing everyone onto the same list? Are YOU willing to sacrifice some in the name of unity, or just willing to volunteer others for the task? It's a question each of us must ask ourselves if we ever expect things to change.
04-28-2009, 07:53 AM
#158
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
I guess "willing" is matter of interpretation. Willingly giving it up because you have no choice is NOT the same as truly doing it because it is not in your interest. Same result, different dynamics. But yes, most management teams will take as much as they can outside the scope provisions. We at Eagle certainly know that.
UAL is looking more and more like they're going to eventually have to do another trip to the BK process as no airline in their right mind would hitch their horse to this hopelessly broken buggy. To prevent that, their pilots may technically be willingly relax more scope, but it would not be their choice. AA might end there as well if forced into a financially untenable corner with similar results, unless the current "line in the sand" philosophy by the APA is abandoned and a more realisitic compromise is adopted.
Heck, I don't WANT further scope relaxation, but what we all want is no longer possible. In the mid 90's perhaps, but now all that can be done is to try to control the cancers growth as slow as possible.
A cure is out of the question. Dr. ALPA didn't show up for surgery in 1992 and now the patient cannot be cured. Chances are more and more scope WILL be given "willingly", but not by choice.
UAL is looking more and more like they're going to eventually have to do another trip to the BK process as no airline in their right mind would hitch their horse to this hopelessly broken buggy. To prevent that, their pilots may technically be willingly relax more scope, but it would not be their choice. AA might end there as well if forced into a financially untenable corner with similar results, unless the current "line in the sand" philosophy by the APA is abandoned and a more realisitic compromise is adopted.
Heck, I don't WANT further scope relaxation, but what we all want is no longer possible. In the mid 90's perhaps, but now all that can be done is to try to control the cancers growth as slow as possible.
A cure is out of the question. Dr. ALPA didn't show up for surgery in 1992 and now the patient cannot be cured. Chances are more and more scope WILL be given "willingly", but not by choice.
You are right about the cure but you can definitely stop the bleeding if you want.
04-28-2009, 07:56 AM
#159
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Well, at AA there still is a pretty good pension (and funded well too). Would the pilots of AA "willingly" give that up for a new 401(k) or some other retirement vehicle just to control scope and regional jets completely ?
My guess is no.
Of course, if emotion gets out of control and AMR flees to the courts, then both a loss of pension AND a whacking of scope could occur. I guess you could say in this scenario they willingly gave up both.
As far as other majors, I haven't heard of a single one interested in one list with their regionals or officially declaring that ALL flying must be returned to them (again whether it was theirs in the first place or not).
My guess is no.
Of course, if emotion gets out of control and AMR flees to the courts, then both a loss of pension AND a whacking of scope could occur. I guess you could say in this scenario they willingly gave up both.
As far as other majors, I haven't heard of a single one interested in one list with their regionals or officially declaring that ALL flying must be returned to them (again whether it was theirs in the first place or not).
04-28-2009, 08:07 AM
#160
Banned
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Posts: 8,350
Traditionally, in the past, only about 3-4 out of 10 regional pilots ever made it to the majors and that was when the majority of the short/medium range domestic flying was still done by them and many of those had at least some military background. In the future, retirements will start to increase, but scope will continue to relax (whether we like it or not.........I know this is painful for those who want to get to a major), so at best, I'd say maybe 2-3 out of 10 will ever see an aircraft larger then a 90-seat RJ.
That means that the overwhelming majority of current and future regional pilots will be CAREER regional pilots (or quit for something else). There wasn't enough mainline berths to support all the hopefuls in the past, when the mainline fleets were larger and the future will see smaller mainline fleets (and reduced compensation for that when taking inflation and health care into account).
Pensions............well, let's move on.
The future for this profession isn't pretty and the only chance for reversing it (the longest of longshots) would require things from all pilots that are unlikley to ever occur. If you REALLY look at the most recent developments (this threads title especially), we're at the point now where the rats are turniong on themselves to save what cheese they have or maximize it at the expense of weaker rats.
Now, we're not doing this "willingly" because we want to, but because we are forced to through our own weakness. EVERY dollar you send to ALPA would be served no less if you chose to clean your backside with it as from here on out, virtually no one is (or will ever be) in a "gain" position, but a damage control position.
That is the new mantra of ALPA, i.e., "were here to help you lose what you have as slow as possible, so you need us". Anything else out of Herndon is fiction.
That means that the overwhelming majority of current and future regional pilots will be CAREER regional pilots (or quit for something else). There wasn't enough mainline berths to support all the hopefuls in the past, when the mainline fleets were larger and the future will see smaller mainline fleets (and reduced compensation for that when taking inflation and health care into account).
Pensions............well, let's move on.
The future for this profession isn't pretty and the only chance for reversing it (the longest of longshots) would require things from all pilots that are unlikley to ever occur. If you REALLY look at the most recent developments (this threads title especially), we're at the point now where the rats are turniong on themselves to save what cheese they have or maximize it at the expense of weaker rats.
Now, we're not doing this "willingly" because we want to, but because we are forced to through our own weakness. EVERY dollar you send to ALPA would be served no less if you chose to clean your backside with it as from here on out, virtually no one is (or will ever be) in a "gain" position, but a damage control position.
That is the new mantra of ALPA, i.e., "were here to help you lose what you have as slow as possible, so you need us". Anything else out of Herndon is fiction.
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