Bucking Bar

To keep from infecting other threads with a decades long scope fight, lets make a new thread.

Everyone crap in their hands and go for a Pitcher's wind up.

If Joe Merchant shows up, everyone will know where to aim

newKnow

Ok, let me start. Historically, we have sucked. But, that does not mean that we should continue to suck. We need to elect leaders who refuse to go about things differently with a different mindset.

While talk is cheap, it is a beginning. But, eventually after there is nothing left to say or plan, there must be action.

I think what will get managements attention is if we elect "new" leaders. And by "new" I mean somewhat more radical. You know, like how George Washington and John Adams were....

New K Now

LOBO

Thanks!!!!!!

Superpilot92

Bucking, i sent the resolution package to my reps for them to read over along with my take on things, Again. I also sent it to everyone i know for them to get educated and educate others. Spread the word. keep up the good work.

slowplay

Help me out here. Can you show me a single example in recent memory of "radical leadership" at a company losing money producing positive results?

UAL? Nope. They've now got a court order hanging over them.
APA? Nope. How many are still on furlough since 2001?
AAA? Nope. They've got a busted union, double bankruptcy payrates, and no hope in sight.

How about the not so radicals? The ones that conduct business.

CAL? Gone through the least pain of the majors post 2001.
SWAPA? Industry leading rates and a new contract (even though they're shrinking next year).
DAL/NWA? Payraises to merge, equity distribution, signficant retirement enhancements, all while losing money.

I think I'd stick with the businessmen.

Check Essential

Problem is there won't be any Delta pilots left if those "businessmen" keep caving in on scope.
But hey - the last Delta pilot will be very well paid as he watches that Mesaba 787 depart for Tokyo.


I would remind you that extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice!
And let me remind you also that moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue.
Barry Goldwater

slowplay

It isn't a military/civilian argument.

How do you spell RJDC again?

I guess you've never been the recipient of a PID petition, nor had your union "brothers" refuse to sign a mutual support resolution (non union Skywest pilots did, however), or oppose the hiring of furloughed ALPA pilots unless they resigned their seniority.

Did all those guys "get it?"

Now a few on here want to make the problem worse by adding Compass to the NWA/DAL list. Sailingfun went through the litany of problems with that idea, so it's not necessary to rehash in detail, but answer his primary concern: What prevents whipsawing new mainline Delta pilots (former CPZ) against lower cost regional 76 feeder carriers?

For extra credit you can answer what happens to the flowdown expense/protection when those guys are added to our list, how it impacts the Ford-Cooksey settlement restrictions, and what the legal rights of the other wholly owned carriers would be. Then we can get warmed up with the consequences of your proposed "solution."

Scope is important. CPZ to mainline isn't the answer. It's a feelgood emotional response to scope.

slowplay

If you go through bankruptcy again that might happen.

Maybe you can point to an example in the US Airline industry of great scope that worked for a network carrier.

AAA? Two bankruptcies later it doesn't appear that it did.
UAL? At least the BAE 146's are gone.
NWA? Again, at least the BAE 146's are gone. They did bring a larger percentage of large RJ's versus fleet size to the new operation with Compass.
AMR? How are those nearly 2000 furloughed guys doing? But they've got scope...
CAL? Probably the most effective clause out there so far.

I lived the dream with Delta Express. All aircraft that size were on a single payscale, but it was substantially below the per seat cost of the next largest mainline airframe. We had to buy the payraise for the airplane out of our total contract, and within three years they were all gone.

lather, rinse, repeat...

mynameisjim

I think integrating Compass could be a good thing if it is paired with change in the scope language. All future 51+ seat (or 71+ if you'd prefer) flying is flown by Delta pilots on the Delta seniority list. As contracts expire they are flown by Delta pilots.

Delta already has 153 DC-9-10 equivalent "RJ"s flying for them. That could mean an eventual 1500 more Delta pilots.

slowplay

False. The last class was hired July 16, 2001. Subsequent classes were cancelled due to the economy, not scope or the manning formula. You might recall that Delta sat down 56 L1011 TriStars and over 100 727's in very short order. 9/11 didn't help.

This is where you come into the spin zone. Please review for the group the timeline of each of these decisions, realizing they were all before you were on the property. For refresher, LOA 46 was 11/11/04, and a bankruptcy avoidance attempt. LOA 51 was 6/1/06 and was a bankruptcy generated agreement under the next to last day of the 1113 process. You might want to review when 70, then 76 seaters were allowed as well. Btw, for a guy who wants to staple CPZ, how were you going to complete the merger with NWA while limiting the scope of their existing contract, order book and fleet?

That merger is what increased your job security and gave you personally increased furlough protection.

Sort of...ASA had hubs in DFW and ATL, CMR had hubs in MCO and CVG, SKW was in SLC (second RJ operator behind CMR) and LAX.

Not exactly. The post merger DCI has more pilots than the premerger DAL group, but not the post merger DAL group. Mainline has 750 aircraft and DCI from all operators has about 700 in Delta service. While they make up the departure percentages that you point out, they do so while flying less than 20% of the ASM's.

Again, not exactly. Point to a full service network airline pilot group that "held the line" on narrowbody scope and show me their mainline growth. It is very presumptous to assume that you would be looking at upgrade vice furlough as in AMR's case, and you acknowledge that in your route viability comment in your next paragraph.

Rereading your over 2000 posts show that you do have passion, but you reserve your acidic commentary only for your co-workers that make up our pilot union. I guess I don't find that surprising, but that is what I find offensive. If you were an equal opportunity wall painter, then I'd respond differently.

And I do feel the same way regarding improving the quality of the career. The last word is yours, as I fly early tomorrow.