Any "Latest & Greatest" about Delta?
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2009
Position: 320B
Posts: 781
I know it's a small item buried in the TA, but details do matter. Most legacy fall in the 2.00 range. SWA was 2.15.
Proposed Per Diem: 2.10/2.20 dom 2.60/2.70 intl.
Current Per Diem at FDX
Per Diem :
$2.15/hr (dom)
$2.95/hr (int'l)
Current Per Diem at UPS
Per Diem :
$2.40/hr (dom)
$3.05/hr (int'l)*
$3.55/hr (Pac Rim)*
$4.05/hr (Europe)*
*revised each January using formula (figures shown for 2012)
These new per diem rates are less than we received in 2000. But, I can't find those exact numbers.
Last time I looked, the cost of living had increased around the world. This is an item that should have been addressed and a better result should have be achieved. I bet RA doesn't have to eat ramen noodles when he travels.
One of many shortfalls in the proposed TA
Proposed Per Diem: 2.10/2.20 dom 2.60/2.70 intl.
Current Per Diem at FDX
Per Diem :
$2.15/hr (dom)
$2.95/hr (int'l)
Current Per Diem at UPS
Per Diem :
$2.40/hr (dom)
$3.05/hr (int'l)*
$3.55/hr (Pac Rim)*
$4.05/hr (Europe)*
*revised each January using formula (figures shown for 2012)
These new per diem rates are less than we received in 2000. But, I can't find those exact numbers.
Last time I looked, the cost of living had increased around the world. This is an item that should have been addressed and a better result should have be achieved. I bet RA doesn't have to eat ramen noodles when he travels.
One of many shortfalls in the proposed TA
Some might say that about you as well. The only thing you look at starts with M and ends with O N E Y....meager as it might be on this proposal you will sell the farm for a few extra dollars. You dont give a shiz about anything else because it likely wont effect your position/airplane. Who cares about the other pilots in the group as long as you get YOURS right?!
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Guys,
Its clear that there are some glaring and critical errors that have been made with this TA.
It is time to practices some TEM... Threat and error management.
Several of the threats have already been listed...it is time to manage the errors before they lead to an unacceptable outcome.
Remember, the goal of TEM is not to assign blame, but to put the aircraft in a safe condition, reevaluate, and move ahead.
I see some of the supporter's postings, and I'm just reminded of an stubborn guy, pressing a bad, unstable approach, and he keeps saying "just wait, it will come together", when the SAFEST course of action is to go around, get the aircraft stable, and set up for another approach...one that follows the criteria more closely.
Alfa said :" I still don't understand what this issue is with Republic and Skyteam, I haven't yet heard one description of this that makes a lick of sense to me. Why would Delta try to make Frontier grow and prosper? They can't put any Delta passengers on Frontier or some C-Series jet whenever that paper airplane actually flies"
The last time I heard hubris like this was from the fNWA NC saying that there was no possible combination of events that would lead NWA to park then DC-9s in favor of the 76 seaters. "They need the lift" we were told.
We all know how that turned out. Are we ready to make exactly the same mistake again?
There have been a number of cases where TA's have been pulled from consideration to be reworked. It's time we thought about doing that.
Nu
Its clear that there are some glaring and critical errors that have been made with this TA.
It is time to practices some TEM... Threat and error management.
Several of the threats have already been listed...it is time to manage the errors before they lead to an unacceptable outcome.
Remember, the goal of TEM is not to assign blame, but to put the aircraft in a safe condition, reevaluate, and move ahead.
I see some of the supporter's postings, and I'm just reminded of an stubborn guy, pressing a bad, unstable approach, and he keeps saying "just wait, it will come together", when the SAFEST course of action is to go around, get the aircraft stable, and set up for another approach...one that follows the criteria more closely.
Alfa said :" I still don't understand what this issue is with Republic and Skyteam, I haven't yet heard one description of this that makes a lick of sense to me. Why would Delta try to make Frontier grow and prosper? They can't put any Delta passengers on Frontier or some C-Series jet whenever that paper airplane actually flies"
The last time I heard hubris like this was from the fNWA NC saying that there was no possible combination of events that would lead NWA to park then DC-9s in favor of the 76 seaters. "They need the lift" we were told.
We all know how that turned out. Are we ready to make exactly the same mistake again?
There have been a number of cases where TA's have been pulled from consideration to be reworked. It's time we thought about doing that.
Nu
If I missed something in this Republic thing help me out. Delta cannot place any code, enter in a joint venture, or enter into a profit/loss arrangement with Frontier unless they negotiate with us. Frontier and Skyteam? Give me the route network on that supposal. Frontier feeds Air France and KLM in Denver to go to Paris and AMS? Isn't there already a pretty big carrier in Denver that flies to Europe? If Frontier wanted to feed someone wouldn't it be United?
I like your aircraft analogy. You sound to me like a guy that is calling go around at 30,000 feet because "well something might go wrong on the approach." Your "reevaluate and move ahead" path will probably mean three or four more years with no additional protections, so how does that reduce the threat? You sound like we are loosening restrictions rather than not tightening them enough for you. As some point our agreements with Republic will run out. At that time they will be gone because Delta is not happy with the Frontier play. Until that time, you cannot buy out of that contract, at least with the money we have to play with.
I see Frontier as a dying carrier. They have no route network, they have no mass, they don't even have a unique product like Virgin America, they are just one more struggling carrier living day to day on the ultra low labor costs they have. If there was some value there, then why hasn't someone ponied up the money to buy them? It can't be worth more than $100 million or so, Delta could buy them with pocket change. If I had a nickel for every goofy idea that Bedford trots out to the press to gain attention, then I would have a lot of nickels. Delta and United could squash Frontier like a bug if it was worth squashing them.
So if you can show me a way where one Delta passenger on Delta code gets on a Frontier jet, then I will reevaluate. Until then, it seems like a boogy man that has no teeth.
Carl
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2009
Position: Capt
Posts: 2,049
Well I can't believe any fNWA pilot not knowing that their management intended to park DC-9's and replace them with 76 seaters. It is in their bankruptcy filings in black and white. Surely you took the time to read the filings and the transcripts. They have a detailed analysis of how DC-9's were unprofitable, how even newer A-319's were overgauged for those markets, and how they needed the 76 seaters to fill in the gap. You can't have been surprised when they replaced the DC-9's, it wasn't a secret.
.
.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
Several posters have disagreed with my statement above that Delta could just park the 50 seaters however I firmly believe that they can do just that with several options currently available if the pilots are resolute enough to vote down this scope giveaway. To better understand first ask yourself why any of the DCI carriers would be willing to give up two revenue making aircraft in exchange for one.
The Air Service Agreements (ASAs) that Delta has put in place starting with the sale of ASA to Sky West and with several other carriers since all stipulate penalties to the DCI carriers if their cost fall outside of almost impossible to maintain requirements. This was a brilliant move on Delta’s part since the language gives Delta some major flexibility in compensation as well as aircraft placement if the DCI carriers fall outside the provisions of their respective ASA. As a matter of fact regional airlines profits have taken a steep nose dive since about 2007 when these types of agreements started going into place. Several regional airlines have suffered their first losses ever and several have gone into bankruptcy including most recently Pinnacle.
The above then answers the question why would a DCI carrier be willing to give up two 50 seat RJs for one 76 RJ. It is not because you can make more money flying 1 airplane vs 2 it is because every time Delta does a swap out with a DCI carrier the new aircraft come in under a new ASA rate and provide for the DCI carrier to swap out 2 aircraft barely breaking even or even losing money (i.e. PCL) with 1 that Delta has agreed to pay a higher profit margin for.
If my statement above is correct then Delta already holds the leverage it needs to dump 50 seaters. By locking the DCI carriers into “self limiting” contracts they have created a scenario where they could offer a ratio of 3-1, 4-1, or even 0-1 to park 50 seaters in exchange for renegotiation and upping the ASA rates allowing the DCI carriers to make higher profit margins similar to what they were making from ‘98 to about ‘08.
There is just no reason to believe that Delta cannot get out of the 50 seat contracts with a little renegotiation, however management must start doing something quickly otherwise the heavy MTC check are going to start kicking in which would require another 10 year investment into a large number of 50 seat aircraft.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Alfa,
You,. ts, and slow, keep giving us money reasons as to why we would be smart to vote yes. But, have you guys noticed that the majority of pilots have gotten over the pay. It looks to me like 95% of the negative TA post on this forum and the ALPA board are jobs & staffing arguments.
You shouldn't be surprised, but your "we had better take the money while we can" & "time value of money" arguments aren't working. Why?
We are the same pilot group today that we were 3 months ago. Three months ago, we said we would give up huge pay increases to protect scope. We said we couldn't be bought of. We said money wasn't everything.
Now, not only is there huge confusion about holes in the scope clause, enforceability, and carve outs, but there are also work rule changes that insure the company can do the same job with less pilots.
As far as I can tell, there is not one section of the TA where Delta pilots can stand up and say that is a stand alone winning issue for us with no concession to give back to the company to lessen the effects.
More than money, Delta pilots are worried about their jobs. What good does a huge pay-raise do anyway if you are bidding a category or two lower aircraft? We are not blind, but because we have good memories, we are understandably gun shy.
Keep that in mind.
You,. ts, and slow, keep giving us money reasons as to why we would be smart to vote yes. But, have you guys noticed that the majority of pilots have gotten over the pay. It looks to me like 95% of the negative TA post on this forum and the ALPA board are jobs & staffing arguments.
You shouldn't be surprised, but your "we had better take the money while we can" & "time value of money" arguments aren't working. Why?
We are the same pilot group today that we were 3 months ago. Three months ago, we said we would give up huge pay increases to protect scope. We said we couldn't be bought of. We said money wasn't everything.
Now, not only is there huge confusion about holes in the scope clause, enforceability, and carve outs, but there are also work rule changes that insure the company can do the same job with less pilots.
As far as I can tell, there is not one section of the TA where Delta pilots can stand up and say that is a stand alone winning issue for us with no concession to give back to the company to lessen the effects.
More than money, Delta pilots are worried about their jobs. What good does a huge pay-raise do anyway if you are bidding a category or two lower aircraft? We are not blind, but because we have good memories, we are understandably gun shy.
Keep that in mind.
It's not just money, it's all the rest. Please tell me how a negotiation will end where only one side wins. We won concessions from Delta even in bankruptcy with a gun to our head. So if you are waiting for some negotiation where only one side's issues are addressed then you better get used to this contract because you will retire under it. If you walk into the NMB and demand only concessions from the company, they will pat you on the head and tell you to come back when you are serious. Please go see the experience of the APA and USAPA for excellent examples of this type of demand bargaining.
Our reserve system is industry leading, our sick leave is industry leading. Our pay is industry leading. Our scope is ground breaking in the control we have over the DCI operation and its relation to mainline. Look at what you demand and what the company is offering in the TA from the perspective of an outside observer (the NMB) and not from the perspective of a pilot that is shooting for the perfect contract. We are already far ahead of our major competitors and about to lap the field. Do you think the NMB will support us moving even further out or will they put us on ice?
No one can guarantee you some growth or upward movement. We have laid the foundation to ensure mainline growth in a neutral or even slightly down economic environment. Past that, you will never have a guarantee. You don't have it now and you won't ever in the future. You will never convince a neutral third party that you have to have that either.
So you are trying to gauge this in light of some perfect contract you imagine. I say you should gauge it in light of how you could force that perfect contract. That will only happen if the NMB allows us to strike. Even if you believe they would allow a strike, they have shown time and again that the type of contract you seek is unavailable until the fiery end of humanity. How many years of watching pilots getting put in the naughty corner will it take for people to learn how to not go to the naughty corner. Airways 7, American 6, Continental 4, United 3. That's twenty years of experience right there.
Go back and read the NMB presentation on the ALPA website. She was giving you a road map to contract success and warning you how to stay out of the naughty corner. Negotiate, zone of reasonableness, listen to your professionals, 29 months in mediation. The railroads consolidated like the airlines are now except it was in the 1990's. Since then, no strikes multiple PEB's. Why would she take the time to point that out to us? Just interesting fun facts or a warning of what's to come?
It seems to me that most on this board think she was joking. She has no agenda to lower your expectations, she is giving advice and has the hammer to make you follow her advice. Maybe we really do need four years on ice to learn our lesson. Expensive lesson, in money, scope, and everything else. Maybe you are right and it's just our turn to touch that stove and see how hot it is.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 2,539
VPR,
The part of the puzzle you are missing is the de facto ownership of the CRJ-200 fleet. Many of the airplanes are actually owned by Delta and leased to the operator. Even in the case where Delta transferred the leases, or the leases originated with the operator, Delta provided guarantee provisions in most cases.
It is my guess that part and parcel of this deal is a significant debt restructuring which will likely result in the Next Gen CRJ-900's specifically being an operating expense instead of a capital expense. By taking this obligation off balance sheet and making it a monthly payment to a service provider Delta helps get down to their 10Bn debt goal.
With less debt comes an improved ability for Delta to obtain new wide body jets. To add a guess to a guess, the 777-300 would be 15% to 30% more efficient doing most of what our 747's do, especially in Asia.
The part of the puzzle you are missing is the de facto ownership of the CRJ-200 fleet. Many of the airplanes are actually owned by Delta and leased to the operator. Even in the case where Delta transferred the leases, or the leases originated with the operator, Delta provided guarantee provisions in most cases.
It is my guess that part and parcel of this deal is a significant debt restructuring which will likely result in the Next Gen CRJ-900's specifically being an operating expense instead of a capital expense. By taking this obligation off balance sheet and making it a monthly payment to a service provider Delta helps get down to their 10Bn debt goal.
With less debt comes an improved ability for Delta to obtain new wide body jets. To add a guess to a guess, the 777-300 would be 15% to 30% more efficient doing most of what our 747's do, especially in Asia.
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
Translation: Don't you know that DALPA considers MEMRAT a rubber stamp? If we thought you actually needed to think about YOUR vote, we would have told you to vote NO. Instead, we specifically told you that YOUR MEC "wholeheartedly approves" of this TA...even though 5 Neanderthals voted NO. What else do you numbnuts need to know?
Carl
Carl
For me, I would put it 99+% that he is going to pass. Why?
- Because being a 747 Captain is so easy even an idiot could pass recurrent.
- Delta's training and checking program is just a sham and they will pass anyone
- This is a pilot who has passed numerous processes of winnowing to get where he is today. He has a vast amount of experience, has undergone a rigorous review during his hiring at a major airline, he has survived 15, 20, 25+ years of flying and checking at a major airline, he has been highly trained both in the simulator and in line operations, he has well thought out procedures and checklists, and a highly trained first officer with the same qualifications to ensure backup and cross checking.
I know that you want to bully me and others that disagree with your position into silence. You think that somehow you should control the flow of information. I refuse to get pushed around by you or the other bullies on this board.
Nice try though.
Well I can't believe any fNWA pilot not knowing that their management intended to park DC-9's and replace them with 76 seaters. It is in their bankruptcy filings in black and white. Surely you took the time to read the filings and the transcripts. They have a detailed analysis of how DC-9's were unprofitable, how even newer A-319's were overgauged for those markets, and how they needed the 76 seaters to fill in the gap. You can't have been surprised when they replaced the DC-9's, it wasn't a secret.
If I missed something in this Republic thing help me out. Delta cannot place any code, enter in a joint venture, or enter into a profit/loss arrangement with Frontier unless they negotiate with us. Frontier and Skyteam? Give me the route network on that supposal. Frontier feeds Air France and KLM in Denver to go to Paris and AMS? Isn't there already a pretty big carrier in Denver that flies to Europe? If Frontier wanted to feed someone wouldn't it be United?
I like your aircraft analogy. You sound to me like a guy that is calling go around at 30,000 feet because "well something might go wrong on the approach." Your "reevaluate and move ahead" path will probably mean three or four more years with no additional protections, so how does that reduce the threat? You sound like we are loosening restrictions rather than not tightening them enough for you. As some point our agreements with Republic will run out. At that time they will be gone because Delta is not happy with the Frontier play. Until that time, you cannot buy out of that contract, at least with the money we have to play with.
I see Frontier as a dying carrier. They have no route network, they have no mass, they don't even have a unique product like Virgin America, they are just one more struggling carrier living day to day on the ultra low labor costs they have. If there was some value there, then why hasn't someone ponied up the money to buy them? It can't be worth more than $100 million or so, Delta could buy them with pocket change. If I had a nickel for every goofy idea that Bedford trots out to the press to gain attention, then I would have a lot of nickels. Delta and United could squash Frontier like a bug if it was worth squashing them.
So if you can show me a way where one Delta passenger on Delta code gets on a Frontier jet, then I will reevaluate. Until then, it seems like a boogy man that has no teeth.
If I missed something in this Republic thing help me out. Delta cannot place any code, enter in a joint venture, or enter into a profit/loss arrangement with Frontier unless they negotiate with us. Frontier and Skyteam? Give me the route network on that supposal. Frontier feeds Air France and KLM in Denver to go to Paris and AMS? Isn't there already a pretty big carrier in Denver that flies to Europe? If Frontier wanted to feed someone wouldn't it be United?
I like your aircraft analogy. You sound to me like a guy that is calling go around at 30,000 feet because "well something might go wrong on the approach." Your "reevaluate and move ahead" path will probably mean three or four more years with no additional protections, so how does that reduce the threat? You sound like we are loosening restrictions rather than not tightening them enough for you. As some point our agreements with Republic will run out. At that time they will be gone because Delta is not happy with the Frontier play. Until that time, you cannot buy out of that contract, at least with the money we have to play with.
I see Frontier as a dying carrier. They have no route network, they have no mass, they don't even have a unique product like Virgin America, they are just one more struggling carrier living day to day on the ultra low labor costs they have. If there was some value there, then why hasn't someone ponied up the money to buy them? It can't be worth more than $100 million or so, Delta could buy them with pocket change. If I had a nickel for every goofy idea that Bedford trots out to the press to gain attention, then I would have a lot of nickels. Delta and United could squash Frontier like a bug if it was worth squashing them.
So if you can show me a way where one Delta passenger on Delta code gets on a Frontier jet, then I will reevaluate. Until then, it seems like a boogy man that has no teeth.
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