Delta Payscale For Crj900?
02-06-2009, 03:04 PM
#401
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
Lest we forget that just over a year ago the NWA pilots got management to cave over work rules during the Block or Better campaign. You underestimate how powerful pilots can be when they actually have the drive to accomplish something. Imagine if the entire fleet taxied around JFK or ATL at a half mile an hour, things would change.
02-07-2009, 04:18 AM
#403
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Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Left, left, left right left....
Posts: 911
Lest we forget that just over a year ago the NWA pilots got management to cave over work rules during the Block or Better campaign. You underestimate how powerful pilots can be when they actually have the drive to accomplish something. Imagine if the entire fleet taxied around JFK or ATL at a half mile an hour, things would change.
It was more like spontaneous combustion of anger and frustration from line pilots in response to the extremely onerous work rules agreed to. The biggest factor was pilots going on sickcall, instead of being sick for a week, would stay out for a month with an illness until they were completely well, lest risk a relapse that they were paid at 75% for. BOB was a not pilots slowing below planned Mach, but simply not doing other peoples jobs to grease the wheels of the operartion. No wing walkers when parking - simply wait until they showed up, no calls. Lot's of FOD on the ramp - wait until completely pushed back and the tow bar was disconnected to start engines. Etc, etc.
The wheels came off the operation without the pilots doing 150%. Everyone continued to do their jobs - they just didn't do anyone else's. NWA cried "uncle" and went to the MEC to negotiate changes to work rules - and took credit for improving the contract when in fact they had nothing to do with it and were responsible for selling us the BK TA to begin with.
I would not expect a BOB at DAL - there is not a culture of civil disobedience there - DAL guys do what they are told and what the MEC tells them to do. I understand pilots even get written up and turned in (by other pilots?) for overly lose interpretations of doing "Jepp revisions" in the flight deck.
02-07-2009, 05:44 AM
#404
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
ACL, not to counteract your sentiments with facts, but:
The junior pilots at Delta have, over the last 15 years, gotten much more compensation in relation to senior pilots.
That came through elimination of the B-Scale and increases in the percentages of Captain's pay. I keep hearing about eating our young, but mostly I see a bunch of young pilots that come in with lots of needs and expect everyone to deliver for them.
Not at all and I think you know that. Just a lot of words to shut people up. I do not want you to do anything for me except not sell out the lower end of the flying.
I keep hearing about how the Northwest pilots will save the Delta pilots with their toughness. Why then have Delta pilots led Northwest in compensation for the vast majority of the last 25 years? Why did Northwest have to get pulled UP to our contract after we both went through bankruptcy at the same time? They may be tougher, but we negotiate better contracts.
Point is that more would be willing to vote no if there is one or two items they do not like. Like scope. Great contract, but there it is again. Another little tidbit about relaxing scope.
As for the squadron buddies bull, sorry but that is just part of the civilian/military crap. It seems that the civilian side constantly wants to stoke this fire and revel in their victim hood.
That is just drama. Victim hood. No, just stating the facts to further convey the uphill battle that brining on CPZ would be. With a mostly military group they want to protect the fraternity.
Go ahead, you are a victim and everyone is really out to get you, you are not paranoid. Never said that never well, but good try. How about understanding that most people in leadership positions in the union haven't been in the military for 10 to 20 years and don't have but one or two friends that are left in the military, and most of them are high ranking officers now and don't want to fly commercial. So explain really slowly to me about protecting squadron buddies again, how does that really work?
It is the idea that putting CPZ on the list makes those squadron guys have to fly an RJ as their entry level aircraft at DL. That is their word not mine. I do not subscribe to that being an issue
This whole scope issue has changed primarily in the context of a mainline business that was failing and falling into bankruptcy. Negotiating with a gun against your head isn't really negotiating, you are trying to survive. Without some concessions in scope in bankruptcy, then our contract would have been rejected. I can say that with some confidence since every contract that went to the judge was rejected. 100% that's a pretty good batting average for airline management. With a rejected contract you would lose all contract protections. All of them. I understand that. What I and a few other are proposing is to lower the scope back to 70 seats.
So you want to think the choice was:
1. Be tough and accept no scope changes or
2. Be weak and cave on scope
Not arguing over past action. Just working towards future goals.
In the real world these were the choices:
1. Accept changes in scope and try to manage the process or
2. Have no scope at all
What you really want, is a magic fairy to come and get rid of all small jets and force management to buy a lot of new bigger jets so you can upgrade.
That is not what has been stated. What has been stated is that we all know that management at every airline decides the type of aircraft. We just want the limit of at least 70 seats or over to be flown at mainline.
If you can show me an example where you can force this outcome then let us know how that works. The marketplace has changed and you either adapt to the changes or you go out of business.
Well CAL, and AMR seem to not let anyone fly jets over 50 and 70 seats respectively except their pilots.
At some point, there will be fewer airlines and then fewer small jets. That process is happening right now as Delta is getting a market share that will require more large jets and less regional jets. That is part of the reason the Delta MEC supported this deal. When this natural consolidation process plays out to its conclusion then the RJ business will be much smaller. Until then, your best bet is to get flow up and flow down arrangements. Hoping to force any airline to swallow up their regional partners is wasted time. If management wants to do that then they will, if they don't they won't.
That is the plan, but we know how plans change.
The problem that you will face if that happens is the continual pressure of the RJ pilots to get pay raises that are greater than the mainline airplanes. It is the same process that occurred for the B-Scale and Express at Delta. That is why the junior pilots have done much better than senior pilots. In fact, the B-Scalers from the 80's and 90's had to eat the B-Scale and then had to eat getting rid of the B-Scale. So, if you get your wish, then you can pretty much expect to eat the process of bringing up their pay rates to the mainline scale. If you think that you can just raise their rates and not pay for it then you are still not operating in the real world. I am sure you think that once this process is complete then you will have solved the issue for good. In my experience, once you stomp out one fire, there is another one just up ahead.
Everyone wants a magic bullet or an easy solution. Be tough, hold the line, take it back. Just a bunch of worthless phrases uttered by people that are frustrated with the fact that they can't control the rest of the world as easily as they can control their aircraft.
The junior pilots at Delta have, over the last 15 years, gotten much more compensation in relation to senior pilots.
That came through elimination of the B-Scale and increases in the percentages of Captain's pay. I keep hearing about eating our young, but mostly I see a bunch of young pilots that come in with lots of needs and expect everyone to deliver for them.
Not at all and I think you know that. Just a lot of words to shut people up. I do not want you to do anything for me except not sell out the lower end of the flying.
I keep hearing about how the Northwest pilots will save the Delta pilots with their toughness. Why then have Delta pilots led Northwest in compensation for the vast majority of the last 25 years? Why did Northwest have to get pulled UP to our contract after we both went through bankruptcy at the same time? They may be tougher, but we negotiate better contracts.
Point is that more would be willing to vote no if there is one or two items they do not like. Like scope. Great contract, but there it is again. Another little tidbit about relaxing scope.
As for the squadron buddies bull, sorry but that is just part of the civilian/military crap. It seems that the civilian side constantly wants to stoke this fire and revel in their victim hood.
That is just drama. Victim hood. No, just stating the facts to further convey the uphill battle that brining on CPZ would be. With a mostly military group they want to protect the fraternity.
Go ahead, you are a victim and everyone is really out to get you, you are not paranoid. Never said that never well, but good try. How about understanding that most people in leadership positions in the union haven't been in the military for 10 to 20 years and don't have but one or two friends that are left in the military, and most of them are high ranking officers now and don't want to fly commercial. So explain really slowly to me about protecting squadron buddies again, how does that really work?
It is the idea that putting CPZ on the list makes those squadron guys have to fly an RJ as their entry level aircraft at DL. That is their word not mine. I do not subscribe to that being an issue
This whole scope issue has changed primarily in the context of a mainline business that was failing and falling into bankruptcy. Negotiating with a gun against your head isn't really negotiating, you are trying to survive. Without some concessions in scope in bankruptcy, then our contract would have been rejected. I can say that with some confidence since every contract that went to the judge was rejected. 100% that's a pretty good batting average for airline management. With a rejected contract you would lose all contract protections. All of them. I understand that. What I and a few other are proposing is to lower the scope back to 70 seats.
So you want to think the choice was:
1. Be tough and accept no scope changes or
2. Be weak and cave on scope
Not arguing over past action. Just working towards future goals.
In the real world these were the choices:
1. Accept changes in scope and try to manage the process or
2. Have no scope at all
What you really want, is a magic fairy to come and get rid of all small jets and force management to buy a lot of new bigger jets so you can upgrade.
That is not what has been stated. What has been stated is that we all know that management at every airline decides the type of aircraft. We just want the limit of at least 70 seats or over to be flown at mainline.
If you can show me an example where you can force this outcome then let us know how that works. The marketplace has changed and you either adapt to the changes or you go out of business.
Well CAL, and AMR seem to not let anyone fly jets over 50 and 70 seats respectively except their pilots.
At some point, there will be fewer airlines and then fewer small jets. That process is happening right now as Delta is getting a market share that will require more large jets and less regional jets. That is part of the reason the Delta MEC supported this deal. When this natural consolidation process plays out to its conclusion then the RJ business will be much smaller. Until then, your best bet is to get flow up and flow down arrangements. Hoping to force any airline to swallow up their regional partners is wasted time. If management wants to do that then they will, if they don't they won't.
That is the plan, but we know how plans change.
The problem that you will face if that happens is the continual pressure of the RJ pilots to get pay raises that are greater than the mainline airplanes. It is the same process that occurred for the B-Scale and Express at Delta. That is why the junior pilots have done much better than senior pilots. In fact, the B-Scalers from the 80's and 90's had to eat the B-Scale and then had to eat getting rid of the B-Scale. So, if you get your wish, then you can pretty much expect to eat the process of bringing up their pay rates to the mainline scale. If you think that you can just raise their rates and not pay for it then you are still not operating in the real world. I am sure you think that once this process is complete then you will have solved the issue for good. In my experience, once you stomp out one fire, there is another one just up ahead.
Everyone wants a magic bullet or an easy solution. Be tough, hold the line, take it back. Just a bunch of worthless phrases uttered by people that are frustrated with the fact that they can't control the rest of the world as easily as they can control their aircraft.
I know you are well placed. I heard the economic argument from ALPA on the small jet issue. I just disagree with a lot of the premise behind it.
02-07-2009, 06:25 AM
#405
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
The point that military guys don't want to fly RJs becasue they are beneath them is wrong. Military don't want to fly a Regional for economic reasons, not ego reasons. The payscale is just too low. The starting pay for a major is still a big pay cut but the pay off with an equal or higher income happens much quicker. The pay at a Regional is just not enough to justify the labor. We could make more doing something else. Military guys are not entry level workers. The market place works both ways.
You put ERJs at Delta/AMR/CAL/et al at the majors pay scale and not one military guy will be offended. Well, maybe the F-15 guys... :-)
You put ERJs at Delta/AMR/CAL/et al at the majors pay scale and not one military guy will be offended. Well, maybe the F-15 guys... :-)
02-07-2009, 06:43 AM
#406
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: Dismayed
Posts: 1,598
The point that military guys don't want to fly RJs becasue they are beneath them is wrong. Military don't want to fly a Regional for economic reasons, not ego reasons. The payscale is just too low. The starting pay for a major is still a big pay cut but the pay off with an equal or higher income happens much quicker. The pay at a Regional is just not enough to justify the labor. We could make more doing something else. Military guys are not entry level workers. The market place works both ways.
You put ERJs at Delta/AMR/CAL/et al at the majors pay scale and not one military guy will be offended. Well, maybe the F-15 guys... :-)
You put ERJs at Delta/AMR/CAL/et al at the majors pay scale and not one military guy will be offended. Well, maybe the F-15 guys... :-)
I know several guys who got out of the military and landed with regionals for one reason or another, but they really want to walk out of one employer and into another employer only once - therefore the desire for the majors. They also usually have enough experience to garner an interview at least with one of the big guys - assuming we're hiring.
I think bringing these compass jets and pilots into Delta would be a good idea. What would you do with the captains? They would be too junior in the Company to survive even a single displacement.
02-07-2009, 07:34 AM
#409
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Joined APC: Apr 2007
Position: Flying the SEC
Posts: 2,350
According to the JPWA CBA pay table, they make more than a 2nd year 74 FO.
EMB-190/CRJ-900
PAY from year 12 to year 1
103.53
102.77
101.97
101.19
100.43
99.64
98.87
98.08
97.32
96.53
95.76
95.04
EMB-195 121.70
120.80
119.87
118.95
118.04
117.12
116.22
115.29
114.39
113.48
112.56
111.72
FO pay is as follows in the same format:
EMB-190/CRJ-900
70.71
70.08
69.44
68.51
67.78
66.26
64.46
62.87
61.41
59.94
52.09
52.09
EMB-195
83.12
82.39
81.63
80.52
79.67
77.88
75.78
73.90
72.18
70.47
60.22
52.09
02-07-2009, 10:51 AM
#410
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Apr 2008
Posts: 1,619
ACL,
Can't do the whole quote counterquote thing because it would be too long. Just a couple of points. First, you point out CAL and AMR scope as preventing 70+ seat flying. As I said before, neither of those companies has 76 seaters on their property and both are getting rid of their smallest mainline planes. I don't know the reason behind this, but you should find out before you hold that up as the end-all solution. Also, you need to study CAL's scope a little more before you hold it up as an example to follow. They do have a limit of 50 seats on their fee for departure carriers but there are virtually no limits on pro-rate code sharing. In fact, CAL management was able to join the DL,NW,CO codeshare deal without any input from the CAL pilots because their scope had no provisions preventing it.
My main point is that Delta may end up bringing this flying back, but probably only on their own accord. If you try to force this issue in bargaining, they will make you pay for it, and the price may be high. If I said you could force this for a 0% pay cut, you would say yes. If I said you could only force this by taking a 50% pay cut, you would say no. Somewhere in between those two, you have a squeal point where the price would be too high. Management would force you to give up every penny they could if you make this your signature issue in bargaining.
There is another path, and that is to try to convince management that this is in THEIR interest. I see two possible arguments, cost and brand management. The cost side is a tough hill to climb. There are cost advantages to size and certainly Delta now pays for some or all of the cost of CEO's, CFO's, Human Relations, etc. at Compass, ASA, Comair, Mesaba, and all the rest. Eliminating this overhead might be a cost incentive to gather back in this flying.
I believe the more cogent argument is brand management. Delta management now wants to be a premiere airline with industry leading service. It will be difficult to do that with the RJ feed being managed by a bunch of executives that have to constantly underbid each other to keep their flying. (Note: this is NOT a knock at the pilots at these carriers, that in my limited exposure are quite professional). If management can be convinced that they need to recapture this flying to control their brand, then you could reach your goal without having to pay a steep price. There would be many other issues to sort out with this and the union would then play a critical role in solving those issues, but I think you will only be successful if you can convince management that they need this for THEM and not for the pilots.
You seem to have all the inside scoop from Flight Operations, perhaps you could convince your buddies up there to work on this path.
Can't do the whole quote counterquote thing because it would be too long. Just a couple of points. First, you point out CAL and AMR scope as preventing 70+ seat flying. As I said before, neither of those companies has 76 seaters on their property and both are getting rid of their smallest mainline planes. I don't know the reason behind this, but you should find out before you hold that up as the end-all solution. Also, you need to study CAL's scope a little more before you hold it up as an example to follow. They do have a limit of 50 seats on their fee for departure carriers but there are virtually no limits on pro-rate code sharing. In fact, CAL management was able to join the DL,NW,CO codeshare deal without any input from the CAL pilots because their scope had no provisions preventing it.
My main point is that Delta may end up bringing this flying back, but probably only on their own accord. If you try to force this issue in bargaining, they will make you pay for it, and the price may be high. If I said you could force this for a 0% pay cut, you would say yes. If I said you could only force this by taking a 50% pay cut, you would say no. Somewhere in between those two, you have a squeal point where the price would be too high. Management would force you to give up every penny they could if you make this your signature issue in bargaining.
There is another path, and that is to try to convince management that this is in THEIR interest. I see two possible arguments, cost and brand management. The cost side is a tough hill to climb. There are cost advantages to size and certainly Delta now pays for some or all of the cost of CEO's, CFO's, Human Relations, etc. at Compass, ASA, Comair, Mesaba, and all the rest. Eliminating this overhead might be a cost incentive to gather back in this flying.
I believe the more cogent argument is brand management. Delta management now wants to be a premiere airline with industry leading service. It will be difficult to do that with the RJ feed being managed by a bunch of executives that have to constantly underbid each other to keep their flying. (Note: this is NOT a knock at the pilots at these carriers, that in my limited exposure are quite professional). If management can be convinced that they need to recapture this flying to control their brand, then you could reach your goal without having to pay a steep price. There would be many other issues to sort out with this and the union would then play a critical role in solving those issues, but I think you will only be successful if you can convince management that they need this for THEM and not for the pilots.
You seem to have all the inside scoop from Flight Operations, perhaps you could convince your buddies up there to work on this path.
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