Originally Posted by alfaromeo

And both airlines are losing more mainline flying now than Delta is, explain that.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Maybe in your seat.

Since you brought up dogs. Two rednecks were sitting on their porch one summer afternoon while the dog lay in the corner licking his nuts. One redneck says, "I wish I could do that." The other replies, "That Dawg 'll bite you." Best advice ever for the MD88.

I'll bring the trash bag up when I back from finding a pole that hasn't been cut up to make wands for the rampers.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Alpha: Obviously 500+ RJ's was too much. The 50 seater never was a threat to mainline economics. The 70 and 76 seaters have the same or better cost specifics, which makes them completely capable of replacing mainline lift with better frequency and the latest generations have more range and better runway numbers. Airlines like JetBlue are operating these things wingtip to wingtip with our 88's, 737's and 757's. We are using them to beat up AirTran.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

What is your preferred metric for measurement? I've learned when I dig up the numbers folks reply with a different metric to try to obsfucate the analysis. So, I'll ask up front, which metric you want? I also need to know the time frame you would like to analyze. The 2008 DOT, BTS, Form 41 data will be out soon and I'll start working on those numbers. In general terms I expect 2008 will show a repeat of the 2007 data, in 2007:

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

However, the point was, outsourcing is not a fix for the airlines' operating losses. It is more a reflection of desperate management burning the furniture to stay warm in the winter.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

IMHO, your new hires deserve better than your distain suggests.

Originally Posted by Bucking Bar

Continental and American avoided bankruptcy and kept most of their scope.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

ACL, not to counteract your sentiments with facts, but:

The junior pilots at Delta have, over the last 15 years, gotten much more compensation in relation to senior pilots. That came through elimination of the B-Scale and increases in the percentages of Captain's pay. I keep hearing about eating our young, but mostly I see a bunch of young pilots that come in with lots of needs and expect everyone to deliver for them.

I keep hearing about how the Northwest pilots will save the Delta pilots with their toughness. Why then have Delta pilots led Northwest in compensation for the vast majority of the last 25 years? Why did Northwest have to get pulled UP to our contract after we both went through bankruptcy at the same time? They may be tougher, but we negotiate better contracts.

As for the squadron buddies bull, sorry but that is just part of the civilian/military crap. It seems that the civilian side constantly wants to stoke this fire and revel in their victimhood. Go ahead, you are a victim and everyone is really out to get you, you are not paranoid. How about understanding that most people in leadership positions in the union haven't been in the military for 10 to 20 years and don't have but one or two friends that are left in the military, and most of them are high ranking officers now and don't want to fly commercial. So explain really slowly to me about protecting squadron buddies again, how does that really work?

This whole scope issue has changed primarily in the context of a mainline business that was failing and falling into bankruptcy. Negotiating with a gun against your head isn't really negotiating, you are trying to survive. Without some concessions in scope in bankruptcy, then our contract would have been rejected. I can say that with some confidence since every contract that went to the judge was rejected. 100% that's a pretty good batting average for airline management. With a rejected contract you would lose all contract protections. All of them.

So you want to think the choice was:

1. Be tough and accept no scope changes or
2. Be weak and cave on scope

In the real world these were the choices:

1. Accept changes in scope and try to manage the process or
2. Have no scope at all

What you really want, is a magic fairy to come and get rid of all small jets and force management to buy a lot of new bigger jets so you can upgrade. If you can show me an example where you can force this outcome then let us know how that works. The marketplace has changed and you either adapt to the changes or you go out of business.

At some point, there will be fewer airlines and then fewer small jets. That process is happening right now as Delta is getting a market share that will require more large jets and less regional jets. That is part of the reason the Delta MEC supported this deal. When this natural consolidation process plays out to its conclusion then the RJ business will be much smaller. Until then, your best bet is to get flow up and flow down arrangements. Hoping to force any airline to swallow up their regional partners is wasted time. If management wants to do that then they will, if they don't they won't.

The problem that you will face if that happens is the continual pressure of the RJ pilots to get pay raises that are greater than the mainline airplanes. It is the same process that occurred for the B-Scale and Express at Delta. That is why the junior pilots have done much better than senior pilots. In fact, the B-Scalers from the 80's and 90's had to eat the B-Scale and then had to eat getting rid of the B-Scale. So, if you get your wish, then you can pretty much expect to eat the process of bringing up their pay rates to the mainline scale. If you think that you can just raise their rates and not pay for it then you are still not operating in the real world. I am sure you think that once this process is complete then you will have solved the issue for good. In my experience, once you stomp out one fire, there is another one just up ahead.

Everyone wants a magic bullet or an easy solution. Be tough, hold the line, take it back. Just a bunch of worthless phrases uttered by people that are frustrated with the fact that they can't control the rest of the world as easily as they can control their aircraft.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

And both airlines are losing more mainline flying now than Delta is, explain that.

Originally Posted by alfaromeo

For instance, if we had "drawn the line" on scope during Chapter 11 and had our contract rejected, then it is doubtful we could have fought off the Airways takeover. That saved about 1,000 jobs at Delta, much less the 700 new hires since then. So the junior pilots complained about the 76 seat jets very loudly and with little sense of decency or maturity. Then they breathe a sigh of relief when their jobs are saved by the good decisions of the same people they were savaging 6 months earlier.