Sniper

That's the offset, right there.

To me, the 'easy' (I say that tongue in cheek) part will be convincing DL (or any other mainline, save CO, who scoped all the 50+ seat flying in and likely took a wage and benefits concession to get it - in hindsight, a brilliant move) to spend negotiating capital to recapture the 50+ seat flying. To put the genie back in the bottle will not come cheaply, if it is even possible @ all.

The hard part will be convincing management to go along with it. I hear the argument about reduced training cycles, however, how much extra does it cost to carry a guy on the Delta contract (or any mainline) vs. the Compass contract (The payrates are bad enough, a paycut for every current Delta pilot to go to the left seat for Compass @ their current rates. What about medical, retirement, 401K, vacation, workrules, etc.)? Every single area of Delta's contract is superior to Compass's. Can all of these costs really be made up by the savings of one training event? And the ability to whipsaw mainline against regional, and regional against regional to continue to keep the flying they have - priceless! I know none of us know all these costs, but put me down as a skeptic that it's cost neutral to bring all of the pilots of Compass onboard to Delta mainline.
For the regional management, their jobs are gone like a fart in the wind if this happens. Whole layers of management and administration, the stock of all these companies, the headquarters . . . the everything - gone! Smaller companies might not be able to fight, but a company like Skywest . . . the state of Utah has a vested interest in preventing this kind of thing from happening, and Skywest didn't get to where it is (largest CRJ operator, relative labor peace, secure long-term contracts with multiple brands) by just sitting back and letting the fight come to them. Politicians will be bought, lobbyists will be paid - no expense will be spared to prevent this.

Look @ the payrate for a 5th year CA @ the regionals. It's around $72/hr. Look @ the payrate for 2nd year FO's on a NB @ a mainline carrier - around the same $72. If you figure the average upgrade @ a 'regional' is around 4 years or so, the expectation of a civilian pilot today is to make about $72/hr after 5-6 years of employment flying jets (pay rates are just one variable, but they're easiest to talk about) From the pilot side, if we could all just work together on this, the integration is closer than we think. Eliminating mainline 1st year pay and stapling the first 5 year payrates of the regional onto the bottom of mainline's rates logically shouldn't impact most civilian pilots (this removes emotion and the thought of a former military fighter driver starting @ the bottom of this new scale from the equation - both difficult to do. It is likely all the more challenging that Delta, the most 'military heavy' of the majors, could potentially be asked to be the first mover on this, but that is the hand that has been dealt, so we must play it or fold yet again).

The stumbling block for the pilots are numerous. If you're a senior CA @ a mainline, you by definition never flew an RJ, and likely were making more $ 10 years ago (perhaps as an FO) than you're making now as a CA. You took huge concessions over the last decade, lost your retirement, and your QOL has gone downhill. Is your #1 priority integration of flying @ the bottom, something that will have no positive effect on you (you're too senior to lose your equipment to the lack of growth, and way too old to ever see the long term benefits of this integration - you will most certainly shoulder the hurt in this, though). If you're a senior CA @ a regional, you likely are there by choice - you have very good QOL, and 'over your dead body' will you be stapled to the bottom of a list that is composed of many of your former FO's.
Mainline will bear virtually all of the costs here - the concessions taken to get the scope language, and the integration 'concessions' (in their eyes) of anything less than a pure staple job. If you want this to happen, the regional pilots will have to go along with it too. There is no way you're going to get the support needed if 'Jake New-hire' @ 'mainline global airlines', a 30 year old with 7 years @ 'puddle-jumper regional', and 2 years as a CFI prior is senior to 'Joe Regional', a 15 year CA @ 'puddle-jumper regional' who flew for 5 years with 'Jake' as his FO. This is about seeing the big picture and working for the good of the profession. Unfortunately, I don't see a way for this to happen unless tremendous leadership and long-range strategic thinking is employed - something we, as pilots, have historically not been good @ demonstrating.

If you're a junior regional pilot, are you willing to potentially give up ever flying as a Captain for an integration?
If you're a senior regional pilot, are you willing to give up QOL and the left seat for an integration?
If you're a junior mainline pilot, are you willing to give up some seniority for an integration?
If you're a senior mainline pilot, are you willing to forgo any gains that will benefit you, and essentially sacrifice your future earnings for the long term good of the profession?

The game is afoot, gentlemen. Shall we rise up to the occasion, or cower behind our own self-centered agendas? I hold out hope that one day this can be done though leadership, self-sacrifice, and mutual cooperation - the ultimate exercise in CRM.

Obviously, HUGE thread drift here, and these issues are not all that relevant to Compass - each pilot signed on there knowing their best case option was a staple to Northwest's list. Compass will be a battle in and of itself - but it's only the first battle in a war that is much larger than all of us.

acl65pilot

I will agree that the CPZ rep needs to represent her pilots.

acl65pilot

Also of note as DAL4 stated all of the guys hired the last 12 or so years would be on board. That brings you up to about the 48% on the list. In effect enough votes to win this.
Fact is that many guys I fly with do not care about the RJ flying. They care more about their buddies getting on at DAL and not having to fly an RJ. That is a step down for their bro's from the unit.
I flew with on like that recently. I eloquently laid out the case chapter and verse for him. At the end he agreed and asked me if his buddy from the air force would get to leap frog the 175? My response was no. It will be the entry level jet.
A few more questions answered, but in the end he agreed that we need to do what is best for us, not the guy our dues do not represent. He willingly admitted that he is uninformed and normally does not vote on anything.
Point is that if you want this to work. You mainline guys need to make sure you can argue this succinctly to everyone you fly with. They stopped caring about the jobs blow them the day they upgraded. (It is a sad fact but true)
I got one more vote for this, and next trip I will work for one more. This is the only way this will pass muster among the whole group.

Sniper

There are a few CA's out there who have taken the time to understand it. Out of those who have, there are a few who'd be willing to sacrifice themselves @ the altar of the profession for it.

These #'s will likely only increase over time. I just wonder where the scope will be when the silent majority actually gets on board with this issue. If you told the Delta MEC that letting Commair operate a couple 50 seat jets over short routes would morph into over 400 jets, many with the range to fly 80% of Delta's current flying - and none of them would be operated by Delta pilots (who'd lose their pensions, take large paycuts, and merge with Northwest) you'd be laughed out of the room. Who knew?

DALMD88FO

Funny I've been here nine years and never once during contract talks did anyone state that they were worried about what their old squadron buddies might have to fly. Especially when you consider that a lot of guys started out on the panel of a 727 (meaning not a window seat) or flew a DC9 that was smaller than some of todays "RJ" jets.

The problem we have run into is that the company has always set the timeline. Here is how the playbook works. The company comes to the union and says we have to have this yesterday. If we don't get it by so and so date we will have to ______ insert overt threat here. We then receive a new contract or LOA from the union and it's an all or nothing vote. Meaning you may not like one particular part but overall you find more to vote for than against.

In our last contract negotiations Lee M left and the union reps left the lounges swearing up an down "Anything over 70 seats will be flown by Delta pilots". Two days later we reach a TA with the company. When it gets to the pilots the scope seat level went from 70 to 76. And more importantly, in my opinion, the aircraft weight went up to include the EMB175 and the CRJ 900 as long as it is configured for 76 seats.

I was furloughed from Delta for almost 3 years. When I left property we had in place a 75 hour cap to flying while pilots were on furlough. A little negotiations and it was gone. I will bet you a coke that if we furlough the company will come to the union and ask for relief for the removing six seats out of the 76 seat RJ's. The will say how uneconomical they become with six less seats and that we need the revenue to make a healthy Delta airlines.
The union will sell it to the pilots by saying that the furlough will be shorter if Delta gets healthier quicker and we need the revenue for that to happen. So we are actually helping the furloughees.

Long story short. If the company wants it bad enough and either pays the current pilots enough (hey guys 15-20% raises if you let scope go to 90 seats) or threatens the pilots enough (if we don't get this relief we are going to shut the doors, furlough 2,000 pilots, etc) then it will happen. I've seen it over and over again. To say it won't change because of squadron buddies is beyond logic though.

Phrog Phlyer

My American contacts tell me on the QT that a 20% raise would seal the deal for them but they are talking 70 seats, not 90.

Bucking Bar

Sniper, the quality of your posts, as well as the others on this subject are outstanding. Finally, a dialogue about scope maintains decorum and logic!

• They way I see our contracts, the mainline pilots need not take concessions to bring the regional pilots up. As you point out, there is already a pretty logical flow to the pay rates under current agreements.
• The insurance at the regionals is BETTER than what we have at mainline unless something has changed very recently. The regionals have better coverage while having lower premiums.
• The regional pilots have recently got trip and duty rigs.
• Vacation allowances are identical from my last employer

The issue for management will be the build up of longevity, which does make a difference in pay rates. We will have to figure that one out. Compass is a junior pilot group, IMHO, that helps too.

IMHO, we are not in section six, nor do we wish to open our contract to get this done. We can work across contracts and certificates and still be one pilot group. Just an idea. What do you guys think?

Bucking Bar

70 seats is 40% more revenue in a jet that costs about the same to operate. Hope they don't do it.

20% is not much spread over several years. 5%, 5%, 5%, 5% next contract...

acl65pilot

I think that this fits nicely in to the mid term contract improvements our MEC stongly hinted at when selling us the JPWA.

acl65pilot

My question is this. Is this group dumb enough to fall for that once again, only to be burned again by it?
I mean, how many times does it take to touch a hot stove and burn your hand to learn that it is not something that you do.

I agree with the sentiment. We eat our young. I for one am happy that we have NWA on board for this. They do not buy in to the doom and gloom as easily as we do.
I also recall that Lee and co stated that this little provision in the contract was hard fought. We had to work very hard to keep it this time around. It is not something they want to let go of. I just hope, as you do that they keep their word.

As for the squadron buddies, it is not the first time that I have heard it. I agree, it is beyond logic.