Delta Payscale For Crj900?
02-04-2009, 07:52 AM
#321
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Spinal Tap Drummer
Posts: 122
The problem is delta scope does not specify the size of the aircraft that can create further scope relax; the NWA contract did. Plus if that 120 cap is raised it never goes back down unless a delta pilot is furloughed that has DOH on 9/1/01 or earlier, which they have to pull out 6 seats. If either the compass/XJ flow is terminated, then it goes to 85.
I would post the source but the site is down for maint. The actual flow through (NWA LOA 2008-01) was carried over to the JPWA. The LOAs that require XJ to have a flow through were not carried over (NWA LOAs 2007-04 & 2007-05). The LOA(s) that require CP to have a bilateral flow were carried over to the JPWA (LOAs 2006-10 & 2006-14).
Last edited by Schwartz; 02-04-2009 at 08:09 AM.
02-04-2009, 08:05 AM
#322
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2008
Position: Kickin’ Back
Posts: 6,971
Jake,
When I was 6 years old, my mother used to say "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!" Maybe you could learn something from her.
From your post, I can see that you never, ever want to come to a legacy carrier because we are all just a bunch of a**holes and you, of all people would not want to be associated with us. Heck, why even bother being on this forum? Well, guess what, here is on a**hole who says you can stay in your bunker and continue lobbing grenades like that. Hope it makes you happy.
Guess I could have learned something from my mother too!!
Denny
When I was 6 years old, my mother used to say "if you can't say anything nice, don't say anything at all!" Maybe you could learn something from her.
From your post, I can see that you never, ever want to come to a legacy carrier because we are all just a bunch of a**holes and you, of all people would not want to be associated with us. Heck, why even bother being on this forum? Well, guess what, here is on a**hole who says you can stay in your bunker and continue lobbing grenades like that. Hope it makes you happy.
Guess I could have learned something from my mother too!!
Denny
02-04-2009, 08:21 AM
#323
Senior by choice
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 427
Here is the contract verbage....
for operation as 70-seat jets.
Amend
Section 1 B. 40. to read:
40. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
a. a propeller-driven aircraft configured with 70 or fewer passenger seats and with a
maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 70,000 or fewer
pounds, and
b. a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 50 or fewer passenger
seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of
65,000 or fewer pounds, and
c. one of up to 255 jet aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in
the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less
(“70-seat jets”), and
d. one of up to the “total authorized number” of jet aircraft configured with 71-76
passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff
weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”). The total authorized number is 30
plus the number authorized under the collective bargaining agreement between
Northwest and the Association as of April 3, 2008. The number of 76-seat jets
allowed under the PWA may be increased above the total authorized number by
three 76-seat jets for each aircraft that is added above the baseline fleet of 440
aircraft operated by pilots for the Company (in service, undergoing maintenance and
operational spares) as of January 1, 2007. The number of 70-seat jets plus 76-seat
jets permitted by Section 1 B. 40. may not exceed 255.
Exception: Up to the 36 EMB-175s that were operated, ordered and/or scheduled to
be retrofitted by Northwest prior to DCC may continue to be operated with up to a
maximum gross takeoff weight of 89,000 pounds.
e. once the number of permitted 76-seat jets is established, it will not be reduced.
Exception: If a pilot on the seniority list with an employment date prior to
September 1, 2001 is placed on furlough, the Company will convert all 76-seat jets
40. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
a. a propeller-driven aircraft configured with 70 or fewer passenger seats and with a
maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 70,000 or fewer
pounds, and
b. a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 50 or fewer passenger
seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of
65,000 or fewer pounds, and
c. one of up to 255 jet aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in
the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less
(“70-seat jets”), and
d. one of up to the “total authorized number” of jet aircraft configured with 71-76
passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff
weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”). The total authorized number is 30
plus the number authorized under the collective bargaining agreement between
Northwest and the Association as of April 3, 2008. The number of 76-seat jets
allowed under the PWA may be increased above the total authorized number by
three 76-seat jets for each aircraft that is added above the baseline fleet of 440
aircraft operated by pilots for the Company (in service, undergoing maintenance and
operational spares) as of January 1, 2007. The number of 70-seat jets plus 76-seat
jets permitted by Section 1 B. 40. may not exceed 255.
Exception: Up to the 36 EMB-175s that were operated, ordered and/or scheduled to
be retrofitted by Northwest prior to DCC may continue to be operated with up to a
maximum gross takeoff weight of 89,000 pounds.
e. once the number of permitted 76-seat jets is established, it will not be reduced.
Exception: If a pilot on the seniority list with an employment date prior to
September 1, 2001 is placed on furlough, the Company will convert all 76-seat jets
for operation as 70-seat jets.
02-04-2009, 08:44 AM
#324
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Can anyone read this and definitively answer whether the Exception for the Compass jets is simply a weight limit exception, or an exception to the large RJ fleet number?
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-04-2009 at 08:56 AM.
02-04-2009, 09:18 AM
#325
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
02-04-2009, 09:22 AM
#326
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
The June 26th special MEC meeting transcript says that the XJ flow can be terminated without penalty.
I would post the source but the site is down for maint. The actual flow through (NWA LOA 2008-01) was carried over to the JPWA. The LOAs that require XJ to have a flow through were not carried over (NWA LOAs 2007-04 & 2007-05). The LOA(s) that require CP to have a bilateral flow were carried over to the JPWA (LOAs 2006-10 & 2006-14).
I would post the source but the site is down for maint. The actual flow through (NWA LOA 2008-01) was carried over to the JPWA. The LOAs that require XJ to have a flow through were not carried over (NWA LOAs 2007-04 & 2007-05). The LOA(s) that require CP to have a bilateral flow were carried over to the JPWA (LOAs 2006-10 & 2006-14).
02-04-2009, 09:22 AM
#327
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Aug 2007
Position: Satan's Camaro
Posts: 397
Here is the contract verbage....
for operation as 70-seat jets.
Amend
Section 1 B. 40. to read:
40. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
a. a propeller-driven aircraft configured with 70 or fewer passenger seats and with a
maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 70,000 or fewer
pounds, and
b. a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 50 or fewer passenger
seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of
65,000 or fewer pounds, and
c. one of up to 255 jet aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in
the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less
(“70-seat jets”), and
d. one of up to the “total authorized number” of jet aircraft configured with 71-76
passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff
weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”). The total authorized number is 30
plus the number authorized under the collective bargaining agreement between
Northwest and the Association as of April 3, 2008. The number of 76-seat jets
allowed under the PWA may be increased above the total authorized number by
three 76-seat jets for each aircraft that is added above the baseline fleet of 440
aircraft operated by pilots for the Company (in service, undergoing maintenance and
operational spares) as of January 1, 2007. The number of 70-seat jets plus 76-seat
jets permitted by Section 1 B. 40. may not exceed 255.
Exception: Up to the 36 EMB-175s that were operated, ordered and/or scheduled to
be retrofitted by Northwest prior to DCC may continue to be operated with up to a
maximum gross takeoff weight of 89,000 pounds.
e. once the number of permitted 76-seat jets is established, it will not be reduced.
Exception: If a pilot on the seniority list with an employment date prior to
September 1, 2001 is placed on furlough, the Company will convert all 76-seat jets
40. “Permitted aircraft type” means:
a. a propeller-driven aircraft configured with 70 or fewer passenger seats and with a
maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of 70,000 or fewer
pounds, and
b. a jet aircraft certificated for operation in the United States for 50 or fewer passenger
seats and with a maximum certificated gross takeoff weight in the United States of
65,000 or fewer pounds, and
c. one of up to 255 jet aircraft configured with 51-70 passenger seats and certificated in
the United States with a maximum gross takeoff weight of 86,000 pounds or less
(“70-seat jets”), and
d. one of up to the “total authorized number” of jet aircraft configured with 71-76
passenger seats and certificated in the United States with a maximum gross takeoff
weight of 86,000 pounds or less (“76-seat jets”). The total authorized number is 30
plus the number authorized under the collective bargaining agreement between
Northwest and the Association as of April 3, 2008. The number of 76-seat jets
allowed under the PWA may be increased above the total authorized number by
three 76-seat jets for each aircraft that is added above the baseline fleet of 440
aircraft operated by pilots for the Company (in service, undergoing maintenance and
operational spares) as of January 1, 2007. The number of 70-seat jets plus 76-seat
jets permitted by Section 1 B. 40. may not exceed 255.
Exception: Up to the 36 EMB-175s that were operated, ordered and/or scheduled to
be retrofitted by Northwest prior to DCC may continue to be operated with up to a
maximum gross takeoff weight of 89,000 pounds.
e. once the number of permitted 76-seat jets is established, it will not be reduced.
Exception: If a pilot on the seniority list with an employment date prior to
September 1, 2001 is placed on furlough, the Company will convert all 76-seat jets
for operation as 70-seat jets.
I don't know the legal context of this, so perhaps I can't really comment on this, but what do they consider as their new baseline? Because if you combine their fleets (according to APC, which I'm sure is probably off by some), that number is 791, which are all "operated by pilots for the Company". Again, I don't know the context of this, and I don't even know if that's the NWA contract, the DAL contract, or the joint contract (JPWA was it?), so please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
As for the subject of the thread, I think that all the regionals that fly for Delta alone should be merged fairly with a bias to the legacy pilots (who also went through being at a regional) with the sole interest of regaining scope. It might mean you don't get a pay raise now for the next 5 years until your next contract, but trust me when I tell you that your bargaining power will be all that much stronger when you do renegotiate. It's not a mistake that the companies that don't outsource their flying to regionals have higher paid pilots (not just talking SWA, FDX, UPS, all of the companies). It might smart a little now, but think how much stronger you'll be with 18415 pilots as opposed to 12424. Once the details of merging the lists are pounded out, it becomes a simple task to clean up scope. Not in legalese, but here's the general gist: Codesharing with any airline outside of the SkyTeam alliance is prohibited, no flying under any brand that includes the Delta name can be performed by any company other than Delta Airlines, no flying under any brand that includes the Delta name can be performed by any pilot other than one on the Delta Airlines seniority list, however, companies with current contracts with Delta or Northwest will have their CURRENT contract allowed until the expiration of said contract, but will not be given the opportunity to renew or extend said contracts in any way. I'd even take a pay CUT to get that kind of language in the contract.
Now, we all know that it is within management's best interest to have a single pilot/FA/rampie/CSA/etc group, all operating under the same management and same interests (I.E. Profit for Delta), so it becomes our job to convince management of why it's actually good for them to allow that language.
I'm going to start a thread about the actual cost of a pilot, since it's been a while since I've done that. I wrote what I was going to say, and then realized it would be a horrible threadjack, so I'll keep it separate.
02-04-2009, 09:31 AM
#328
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: G550 Captain
Posts: 1,206
Thanks for putting forth your efforts on this issue. I appreciate it. My only caution is make sure you think through all the possible consequences before advocating stapling one group over another. ie. Getting the Compass E175s under the DAL mainline umbrella may not result in the first step to recapturing all the 76 RJ flying as pointed by Mesabah. He has wisely pointed out that may actually have an unintended consequence of DAL management coming right back at you with those 6 figure corporate lawyers and argue now they are entitled to add more CRJ900s to the DCI fleet, 3 to 1 ratio. Don't take my word for it. Take the whole contract to an experienced aviation attorney who has working experience with the airline and see what he says instead of relying on newhires at DAL on this forum. I doubt any of them has the legal expertise to stand up against DAL management legal team and win, especialy that guy NuGuy or whatever his call sign is.
02-04-2009, 09:51 AM
#329
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Lighteningspeed,
You are exactly right about the unintended consequences.
The Delta pilots are represented by ALPA (with many similarities to an attorney / client relationship). That is part of the reason that my hip-shot resolution (if anyone wants to take it further, I'm not) leaves the situation open for the Delta MEC to look at this, provide advise and then take appropriate action.
Ideally, a resolution would have co-sponsorship from a Compass and a Delta pilot. The issue would be investigated by those we pay to represent us, and we could learn the objective findings of that evaluation. Then appropriate goals could be set and a plan of action (or inaction) could be developed.
You are exactly right about the unintended consequences.
The Delta pilots are represented by ALPA (with many similarities to an attorney / client relationship). That is part of the reason that my hip-shot resolution (if anyone wants to take it further, I'm not) leaves the situation open for the Delta MEC to look at this, provide advise and then take appropriate action.
Ideally, a resolution would have co-sponsorship from a Compass and a Delta pilot. The issue would be investigated by those we pay to represent us, and we could learn the objective findings of that evaluation. Then appropriate goals could be set and a plan of action (or inaction) could be developed.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-04-2009 at 09:56 AM.
02-04-2009, 09:51 AM
#330
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Position: G550 Captain
Posts: 1,206
The conversation was friendly until it was mentioned that I don't deserve to be stapled because the airplane I fly doesn't have adaquet overhead bin space. In fact NuGuy wanted the 76 CRJ operators shut down and the E-Jet guys given mainline seniority. I took offense to that.
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