Delta Payscale For Crj900?
02-03-2009, 11:42 AM
#241
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Ok, I talked to a friend of mine in NWA/Delta management to get some insight. Actually, there are too many 70+ seat RJ's in the delta system under the current scope contract. They can either park them in the desert or they can bring them to mainline. It sounds like delta would like to bring the compass jets to mainline to avoid a scope battle with the mainline pilots. At that point he expects that delta will exercise the 900 options to replace more 200's.
02-03-2009, 11:58 AM
#242
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
That is exactly my point. You are guarded why, because he didn't jump through the same hoops. I hate to break it to you but you didn't jump through the same hoops that others before you did either. You jumped through more than some and less than others. How does that line from Pulp Fiction go "that feeling is pride f'ing with you". Your pride you feel shouldn't be lessened any by people who don't have to jump through the same hoops.
I used to talk to instructors (727) who said I was way more qualified then their students back in the 70's. I had about 700 hours at the time. Somehow we as pilots think we are getting screwed if others don't go through the same stuff as us. We all go through way to much to get to the majors and it's only getting harder with the increase in pilots at the regionals. Why not just help anyone we can out.
I used to talk to instructors (727) who said I was way more qualified then their students back in the 70's. I had about 700 hours at the time. Somehow we as pilots think we are getting screwed if others don't go through the same stuff as us. We all go through way to much to get to the majors and it's only getting harder with the increase in pilots at the regionals. Why not just help anyone we can out.
One of my concerns is protecting "my brand". I grew up as a young kid wanting only to fly with Delta. I was enamored by the pilots and devastated in the early '90s when my marine recruiter told me that they were only going to be looking at helo pilots for the time being. Since DAL was 96% military back then I thought my dream may have remained that. But I persevered and never lost hope. I took the civilian route and regret nothing.
However, the regional hiring standards are quite different from the DAL standard. There were numerous pilots I knew at both regionals I worked for who had multiple training failures, certificate actions, no college degree, etc. They would not and could not ever pass an interview here. As such, the filters that allowed DAL to hire the best DAL candidate wouldn't be met.
Compass pilots passed the NWA interview. They were hired on an assumption that they would become NWA pilots. Comair, ASA, Skywest pilots are all hired to become their respective airline's pilots with no input from the mainline brand. In time, they can look forward to moving to the top of their seniority lists. However, if they want to fly DAL jets they can interview here.
My desire to protect our flying and increase it through bringing back the 76 seat flying doesn't mean that everyone of those pilots should be on our list with no preconditions. Compass is an exception because they've already done the interview and were hired for a future NWA job. As far as I'm concerned, the 70 seaters, et al, at the contracted regionals are just that......contracted. We should be able to take back that flying and do it here.
However, to win a war you must win the battles. The battle that is most pressing is getting Compass on our property.
02-03-2009, 12:13 PM
#243
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
No offense Eric, but I feel like I'm having a disagreement with my wife where she "hears" what I'm saying but doesn't "understand" what I'm saying. What hoops do you propose I didn't go through? I was civilian so yes, I didn't go through a military hoop. Neither did all military guys go through civilian hoops. My civilian hoop is different from yours.
One of my concerns is protecting "my brand". I grew up as a young kid wanting only to fly with Delta. I was enamored by the pilots and devastated in the early '90s when my marine recruiter told me that they were only going to be looking at helo pilots for the time being. Since DAL was 96% military back then I thought my dream may have remained that. But I persevered and never lost hope. I took the civilian route and regret nothing.
However, the regional hiring standards are quite different from the DAL standard. There were numerous pilots I knew at both regionals I worked for who had multiple training failures, certificate actions, no college degree, etc. They would not and could not ever pass an interview here. As such, the filters that allowed DAL to hire the best DAL candidate wouldn't be met.
Compass pilots passed the NWA interview. They were hired on an assumption that they would become NWA pilots. Comair, ASA, Skywest pilots are all hired to become their respective airline's pilots with no input from the mainline brand. In time, they can look forward to moving to the top of their seniority lists. However, if they want to fly DAL jets they can interview here.
My desire to protect our flying and increase it through bringing back the 76 seat flying doesn't mean that everyone of those pilots should be on our list with no preconditions. Compass is an exception because they've already done the interview and were hired for a future NWA job. As far as I'm concerned, the 70 seaters, et al, at the contracted regionals are just that......contracted. We should be able to take back that flying and do it here.
However, to win a war you must win the battles. The battle that is most pressing is getting Compass on our property.
One of my concerns is protecting "my brand". I grew up as a young kid wanting only to fly with Delta. I was enamored by the pilots and devastated in the early '90s when my marine recruiter told me that they were only going to be looking at helo pilots for the time being. Since DAL was 96% military back then I thought my dream may have remained that. But I persevered and never lost hope. I took the civilian route and regret nothing.
However, the regional hiring standards are quite different from the DAL standard. There were numerous pilots I knew at both regionals I worked for who had multiple training failures, certificate actions, no college degree, etc. They would not and could not ever pass an interview here. As such, the filters that allowed DAL to hire the best DAL candidate wouldn't be met.
Compass pilots passed the NWA interview. They were hired on an assumption that they would become NWA pilots. Comair, ASA, Skywest pilots are all hired to become their respective airline's pilots with no input from the mainline brand. In time, they can look forward to moving to the top of their seniority lists. However, if they want to fly DAL jets they can interview here.
My desire to protect our flying and increase it through bringing back the 76 seat flying doesn't mean that everyone of those pilots should be on our list with no preconditions. Compass is an exception because they've already done the interview and were hired for a future NWA job. As far as I'm concerned, the 70 seaters, et al, at the contracted regionals are just that......contracted. We should be able to take back that flying and do it here.
However, to win a war you must win the battles. The battle that is most pressing is getting Compass on our property.
02-03-2009, 12:14 PM
#244
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
I know where DAL4 is coming from. I flew with the regional guys that felt entitled to a 767 left seat because he put in 20 years at ASA. My career mirrors his. Top grades from top schools, etc.
You know who else cares? The people doing DAL's hiring. I am telling you, they screwed them selves in to the roof when they but two and two together about CPZ. They realized that they were not going to interview these pilots and they were going to be on the mainline list and not on probation. There is a drive internally to make sure that there is very good quality control over at CPZ no matter what happens to our list and theirs.
I think what gets most guys is this. Regional guys that want the respect, etc demand it from a guy that was in their shoes, and worked is butt off to get to DAL, NWA or the like. The rub comes with the fact that these guys want to be on our list be treated equally and not have to go through the work. Heck some of those guys failed the DAL HR interview.
As with any progress there are some bad apples. Most people have their bad opinion of the other group because they ran in to one of the jerks. As a once outsider these DAL guys are great. I have not run across to many jerks yet. Now protective of what is DAL. That is another story.
I had one CA tell me, and I agree. He sees everyone here at DAL as an equal. We all are educated, smart and driven. We all had to jump through the same hoops to get here. There is no need to have that pi$$ing contest to show each other who is smarter. He is right.
I cannot tell you how many times I had to deal with a CA or FO in my previous life that need to prove his or her smarts to me. Why, because it is not a known quantity.
You know who else cares? The people doing DAL's hiring. I am telling you, they screwed them selves in to the roof when they but two and two together about CPZ. They realized that they were not going to interview these pilots and they were going to be on the mainline list and not on probation. There is a drive internally to make sure that there is very good quality control over at CPZ no matter what happens to our list and theirs.
I think what gets most guys is this. Regional guys that want the respect, etc demand it from a guy that was in their shoes, and worked is butt off to get to DAL, NWA or the like. The rub comes with the fact that these guys want to be on our list be treated equally and not have to go through the work. Heck some of those guys failed the DAL HR interview.
As with any progress there are some bad apples. Most people have their bad opinion of the other group because they ran in to one of the jerks. As a once outsider these DAL guys are great. I have not run across to many jerks yet. Now protective of what is DAL. That is another story.
I had one CA tell me, and I agree. He sees everyone here at DAL as an equal. We all are educated, smart and driven. We all had to jump through the same hoops to get here. There is no need to have that pi$$ing contest to show each other who is smarter. He is right.
I cannot tell you how many times I had to deal with a CA or FO in my previous life that need to prove his or her smarts to me. Why, because it is not a known quantity.
Everyone jumps through hoops but not necessarily the same ones or as many.
If delta HR is so bent out of shape about compass you have to ask why. What is it that makes them that way? Is a delta pilot really something special compared to other pilots out there. Do they only feel that way about compass and not NWA. Compass pilots I hear are all typed as a new hire. That should say something about their skills to ease the HR minds. I'm not trying to rip on you guys, I just shake my head when I hear things like this. Every airline has their 10% and I doubt delta is any different.
02-03-2009, 12:15 PM
#245
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
Resolution in Support of the Analysis and Consideration of a Single Seniority List with the Pilots of Compass Airlines
Whereas:
1. Compass Airlines is a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines, Inc., with a unique bilateral flow through agreement which places Compass Pilots on the Delta seniority list and provides job protection provisions for Delta pilots to displace to the Compass seniority list, and
2. This flow through agreement places pilots in current seniority order, with the most senior Compass pilot flowing to the most junior Delta pilot position and inversely the most junior Delta pilot position displacing to the most senior Compass pilot position, and
3. Compass Airlines operates a limited number of the largest aircraft permitted under Delta’s Pilot Working Agreement, and
4. These aircraft are specifically acquired to perform mainline replacement flying, and
5. Current contract provisions provide for concurrent seniority at Compass Airlines and Delta Air Lines, and
6. Compass Airlines and Delta Air Lines are both represented by the Air Line Pilots Association and share a common Master Executive Counsel structure, and
7. Economic conditions lead to a reasonable belief that flow up and flow down provisions are likely to be exercised at a considerable cost to Delta Air Lines, and
8. All involved parties have a common interest in ensuring the highest quality pilots provide Delta Air Lines service, and
9. The number and quality of Delta Air Lines jobs would be increased, and
10. Minimal contract changes would be required to bring the Compass pilots on a single seniority list.
Therefore Be it Resolved:
That the Delta Air Lines Master Executive Counsel be directed to investigate and evaluate the economic and professional outcomes and consequences of a single list with the pilots of Compass Airlines, further
That the Delta MEC communicate the findings of its evaluation to the membership.
That if sufficient economic and professional justification exists, the Delta Master Executive Counsel promote the negotiation of a single seniority list and negotiate appropriate agreements to accomplish the goal of returning flying to Delta pilots through the creation of a single seniority list and strengthened scope provisions.
-----------------
Just pulled that out of the air. It is open ended, so the MEC can take a look and kill it with political cover. If they feel in any way threatened, they will kill it on principle.
Last edited by Bucking Bar; 02-03-2009 at 12:40 PM.
02-03-2009, 12:19 PM
#246
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Position: 744 CA
Posts: 4,772
No offense Eric, but I feel like I'm having a disagreement with my wife where she "hears" what I'm saying but doesn't "understand" what I'm saying. What hoops do you propose I didn't go through? I was civilian so yes, I didn't go through a military hoop. Neither did all military guys go through civilian hoops. My civilian hoop is different from yours.
One of my concerns is protecting "my brand". I grew up as a young kid wanting only to fly with Delta. I was enamored by the pilots and devastated in the early '90s when my marine recruiter told me that they were only going to be looking at helo pilots for the time being. Since DAL was 96% military back then I thought my dream may have remained that. But I persevered and never lost hope. I took the civilian route and regret nothing.
However, the regional hiring standards are quite different from the DAL standard. There were numerous pilots I knew at both regionals I worked for who had multiple training failures, certificate actions, no college degree, etc. They would not and could not ever pass an interview here. As such, the filters that allowed DAL to hire the best DAL candidate wouldn't be met.
Compass pilots passed the NWA interview. They were hired on an assumption that they would become NWA pilots. Comair, ASA, Skywest pilots are all hired to become their respective airline's pilots with no input from the mainline brand. In time, they can look forward to moving to the top of their seniority lists. However, if they want to fly DAL jets they can interview here.
My desire to protect our flying and increase it through bringing back the 76 seat flying doesn't mean that everyone of those pilots should be on our list with no preconditions. Compass is an exception because they've already done the interview and were hired for a future NWA job. As far as I'm concerned, the 70 seaters, et al, at the contracted regionals are just that......contracted. We should be able to take back that flying and do it here.
However, to win a war you must win the battles. The battle that is most pressing is getting Compass on our property.
One of my concerns is protecting "my brand". I grew up as a young kid wanting only to fly with Delta. I was enamored by the pilots and devastated in the early '90s when my marine recruiter told me that they were only going to be looking at helo pilots for the time being. Since DAL was 96% military back then I thought my dream may have remained that. But I persevered and never lost hope. I took the civilian route and regret nothing.
However, the regional hiring standards are quite different from the DAL standard. There were numerous pilots I knew at both regionals I worked for who had multiple training failures, certificate actions, no college degree, etc. They would not and could not ever pass an interview here. As such, the filters that allowed DAL to hire the best DAL candidate wouldn't be met.
Compass pilots passed the NWA interview. They were hired on an assumption that they would become NWA pilots. Comair, ASA, Skywest pilots are all hired to become their respective airline's pilots with no input from the mainline brand. In time, they can look forward to moving to the top of their seniority lists. However, if they want to fly DAL jets they can interview here.
My desire to protect our flying and increase it through bringing back the 76 seat flying doesn't mean that everyone of those pilots should be on our list with no preconditions. Compass is an exception because they've already done the interview and were hired for a future NWA job. As far as I'm concerned, the 70 seaters, et al, at the contracted regionals are just that......contracted. We should be able to take back that flying and do it here.
However, to win a war you must win the battles. The battle that is most pressing is getting Compass on our property.
I believe companies have theright to hire whomever they want. But I also believe that if you want all the jet flying folded back into mainline then you may have to take some people who might not have gotten in any other way. If they are bad apples then annual PC's, LOFTS and or upgrades or equipment changes will weed them out. Taking those you may not have wanted may be the price that has to be paid for the greater good of getting the flying back to where it should be. ( note: just because I believe it should be there doesnt mean i think it ever will really happen ). Having flown C-130's in the AF the "STRAT MAC" ( C-5 and 141 ) guys always looked down on us lowly Herc drivers. I can honestly say having spent many years in regional 121 flying I felt the same crap from mainline guys towards regional pilots as I did in the AF. Difference was in the AF I made the same money as they did...LOL.
Honestly, I dont know the answers. I wish you all well.
02-03-2009, 12:33 PM
#247
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I have so far kept my tongue on this subject. But I will say that the last post is exactly why companies like SKW, RAH, ASA, XJT or any other regional you want to name will continue to press for more flying and larger equipment. For those guys who can NEVER or dont want to EVER move to a mainline company they are protecting THEIR future, can you blame them? I have been in and around this industry for the better part of 17 years.... and it seems the attitudes never change. My personal background is military, and two stints of Regional 121 and corporate.... is that enough hoops for you? I digress.......The fact is ( and I have stated this before ) the Regional companies have lots ( more than will admit it ) of guys and gals who for whatever reason, personal, professional, QOL... you name it can not or would not go to a major mainline carrier. The Mantra that all this flying belongs at mainline... ( but not necessarily with the guys flying it now...) alienates those people as they feel that there jobs are threatened.
I believe companies have theright to hire whomever they want. But I also believe that if you want all the jet flying folded back into mainline then you may have to take some people who might not have gotten in any other way. If they are bad apples then annual PC's, LOFTS and or upgrades or equipment changes will weed them out. Taking those you may not have wanted may be the price that has to be paid for the greater good of getting the flying back to where it should be. ( note: just because I believe it should be there doesnt mean i think it ever will really happen ). Having flown C-130's in the AF the "STRAT MAC" ( C-5 and 141 ) guys always looked down on us lowly Herc drivers. I can honestly say having spent many years in regional 121 flying I felt the same crap from mainline guys towards regional pilots as I did in the AF. Difference was in the AF I made the same money as they did...LOL.
Honestly, I dont know the answers. I wish you all well.
I believe companies have theright to hire whomever they want. But I also believe that if you want all the jet flying folded back into mainline then you may have to take some people who might not have gotten in any other way. If they are bad apples then annual PC's, LOFTS and or upgrades or equipment changes will weed them out. Taking those you may not have wanted may be the price that has to be paid for the greater good of getting the flying back to where it should be. ( note: just because I believe it should be there doesnt mean i think it ever will really happen ). Having flown C-130's in the AF the "STRAT MAC" ( C-5 and 141 ) guys always looked down on us lowly Herc drivers. I can honestly say having spent many years in regional 121 flying I felt the same crap from mainline guys towards regional pilots as I did in the AF. Difference was in the AF I made the same money as they did...LOL.
Honestly, I dont know the answers. I wish you all well.
I agree that every airplane should be mainline. I like APA's approach, but realistically what we are trying to attain with CPZ is of immediate importance. The second that one pilot from there bypasses the flow, there will start to be issues.
I am glad that a previous poster called a contact, he can say what I cannot. Fact is that something will give here. DAL wants more 900's but has an issue. There are two ways to deal with it. One is to bring the CPZ list and jets over here, the other is to just bring the jets. I prefer the former, because it sets a a floor to move forward with the other wholly owned airlines and then the DCI contract carriers.
As DAL4 said. To win the war you need to win many battles. This is one that has the best chance out of the gate.
02-03-2009, 12:37 PM
#248
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
ACL, I agree with you.
If we bring the jets over here, we still need to deal with the "competition." That's nearly impossible when one union represents both sides. The end result would be another bloody war in our union with the Delta pilots possibly leaving an ALPA that was hamstrung by its conflicting representational duties.
Compass could show the way out of this decade long mess.
If we bring the jets over here, we still need to deal with the "competition." That's nearly impossible when one union represents both sides. The end result would be another bloody war in our union with the Delta pilots possibly leaving an ALPA that was hamstrung by its conflicting representational duties.
Compass could show the way out of this decade long mess.
02-03-2009, 12:38 PM
#249
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
Resolution in Support of the Analysis and Consideration of a Single Seniority List with the Pilots of Compass Airlines
Whereas:1. Compass Airlines is a wholly owned subsidiary of Delta Air Lines, Inc., with a unique bilateral flow through agreement which places Compass Pilots on the Delta seniority list and provides job protection provisions for Delta pilots to displace to the Compass seniority list, and
2. This flow through agreement places pilots in current seniority order, with the most senior Compass pilot flowing to the most junior Delta pilot position and inversely the most junior Delta pilot position displacing to the most senior Compass pilot position, and
3. Compass Airlines operates a limited number of the largest aircraft permitted under Delta’s Pilot Working Agreement, and
4. These aircraft are specifically acquired to perform mainline replacement flying, and
5. Current contract provisions provide for concurrent seniority at Compass Airlines and Delta Air Lines, and
6. Compass Airlines and Delta Air Lines are both represented by the Air Line Pilots Association and share a common Master Executive Counsel structure, and
7. Economic conditions lead to a reasonable belief that flow up and flow down provisions are likely to be exercised at a considerable cost to Delta Air Lines, and
8. All involved parties have a common interest in ensuring the highest quality pilots provide Delta Air Lines service, and
9. The number and quality of Delta Air Lines jobs would be increased, and
10. Minimal contract changes would be required to bring the Compass pilots on a single seniority list.
Therefore Be it Resolved:
That the Delta Air Lines Master Executive Counsel be directed to investigate and evaluate the economic and professional outcomes and consequences of a single list with the pilots of Compass Airlines, further
That the Delta MEC communicate the findings of its evaluation to the membership.
That if sufficient economic and professional justification exists, the Delta Master Executive Counsel promote the negotiation of a single seniority list and negotiate appropriate agreements to accomplish the goal of returning flying to Delta pilots through the creation of a single seniority list and strengthened scope provisions.
-----------------
Just pulled that out of the air. It is open ended, so the MEC can take a look and kill it with political cover. If they feel in any way threatened, they will kill it on principle.
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