Delta Payscale For Crj900?
02-03-2009, 10:56 AM
#231
Can't abide NAI
Joined APC: Jun 2007
Position: Douglas Aerospace post production Flight Test & Work Around Engineering bulletin dissembler
Posts: 12,037
At some point somebody needs to call their Reps and learn the current political wind conditions.
Sparky gave us a good post on the background of a one list resolution from the Compass side.
Most of these Reps are the same people who negotiated and promoted the current outsourcing arrangement. We are contemplating a 180 degree course reversal.
Also there is the Company angle. If Delta wants a single list, they could probably get ALPA's cooperation. But I don't see ALPA fighting to obtain what they just sold (and what we ratified).
ACL65, Fly4Delta, Sparky; "wind check?" Any inkling that the Company might turn the ship into the wind so we can get some pilots aboard?
Sparky gave us a good post on the background of a one list resolution from the Compass side.
Most of these Reps are the same people who negotiated and promoted the current outsourcing arrangement. We are contemplating a 180 degree course reversal.
Also there is the Company angle. If Delta wants a single list, they could probably get ALPA's cooperation. But I don't see ALPA fighting to obtain what they just sold (and what we ratified).
ACL65, Fly4Delta, Sparky; "wind check?" Any inkling that the Company might turn the ship into the wind so we can get some pilots aboard?
02-03-2009, 11:06 AM
#232
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
At some point somebody needs to call their Reps and learn the current political wind conditions.
Sparky gave us a good post on the background of a one list resolution from the Compass side.
Most of these Reps are the same people who negotiated and promoted the current outsourcing arrangement. We are contemplating a 180 degree course reversal.
Also there is the Company angle. If Delta wants a single list, they could probably get ALPA's cooperation. But I don't see ALPA fighting to obtain what they just sold (and what we ratified).
ACL65, Fly4Delta, Sparky; "wind check?" Any inkling that the Company might turn the ship into the wind so we can get some pilots aboard?
Sparky gave us a good post on the background of a one list resolution from the Compass side.
Most of these Reps are the same people who negotiated and promoted the current outsourcing arrangement. We are contemplating a 180 degree course reversal.
Also there is the Company angle. If Delta wants a single list, they could probably get ALPA's cooperation. But I don't see ALPA fighting to obtain what they just sold (and what we ratified).
ACL65, Fly4Delta, Sparky; "wind check?" Any inkling that the Company might turn the ship into the wind so we can get some pilots aboard?
Yes Bar there is a possibility. And thus all of the discussion.
This is a great opportunity!
02-03-2009, 11:16 AM
#235
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
It might not have a lot do do with what people deserve to you, but there are people out there who think that way. Too many pilots only look north of their current spot and never look south. I've run into quite a few who think regional pilots are a second class type of pilot. They haven't paid there dues yet. They think why should I look out for people behind me. My response is "because that guy north of you, in the widebody, should be looking out for you, the narrowbody pilot."
There is even a new hire at delta on this board who doesn't think compass pilots should be stapled because they wouldn't have to go through the same interview that he did. Why is it that he voiced this opinion against compass pilots and not the northwest pilots. I also saw someone complain that there is an NWA new hire that was rejected at delta and they thought it was bs that he would now be a delta pilot.
Ego and what people think they deserve will have a lot to do with it.
ps I've been on that bandwagon with a microphone for quite awhile now. I'm all for getting flying back to mainline.
There is even a new hire at delta on this board who doesn't think compass pilots should be stapled because they wouldn't have to go through the same interview that he did. Why is it that he voiced this opinion against compass pilots and not the northwest pilots. I also saw someone complain that there is an NWA new hire that was rejected at delta and they thought it was bs that he would now be a delta pilot.
Ego and what people think they deserve will have a lot to do with it.
ps I've been on that bandwagon with a microphone for quite awhile now. I'm all for getting flying back to mainline.
I know where DAL4 is coming from. I flew with the regional guys that felt entitled to a 767 left seat because he put in 20 years at ASA. My career mirrors his. Top grades from top schools, etc.
You know who else cares? The people doing DAL's hiring. I am telling you, they screwed them selves in to the roof when they but two and two together about CPZ. They realized that they were not going to interview these pilots and they were going to be on the mainline list and not on probation. There is a drive internally to make sure that there is very good quality control over at CPZ no matter what happens to our list and theirs.
I think what gets most guys is this. Regional guys that want the respect, etc demand it from a guy that was in their shoes, and worked is butt off to get to DAL, NWA or the like. The rub comes with the fact that these guys want to be on our list be treated equally and not have to go through the work. Heck some of those guys failed the DAL HR interview.
As with any progress there are some bad apples. Most people have their bad opinion of the other group because they ran in to one of the jerks. As a once outsider these DAL guys are great. I have not run across to many jerks yet. Now protective of what is DAL. That is another story.
I had one CA tell me, and I agree. He sees everyone here at DAL as an equal. We all are educated, smart and driven. We all had to jump through the same hoops to get here. There is no need to have that pi$$ing contest to show each other who is smarter. He is right.
I cannot tell you how many times I had to deal with a CA or FO in my previous life that need to prove his or her smarts to me. Why, because it is not a known quantity.
02-03-2009, 11:17 AM
#237
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
One way to do it is to reinstate the 2 year training freeze on your first assigned piece of equipment. I for one am willing to have that back to get CPZ on the list.
Serious, that you can not see a cost saving. Really do you not want CPZ on the mainline list? If so, why not? Does that hurt you?
Also do not type the CPZ FO's give them an SIC type. Huge savings there.
You will have some movement off that seat. No doubt about it, but you need to realize that it will be a lot less than the current arrangement.
Initially you would see movement as we all did when DAL opened its doors, but after a while people get to a place they like. The left seat of a 175 is a nice place for a lot of people. We have guys on bypass in the left seat of the 190/95 at some operators. They could have come back to a pay raise and a bigger jet, but opted to stay put until their QOL at DAL matched what they had doing this "RJ" job.
Under the current agreement the list at CPZ gets flushed every four years. Even DAL's junior jets of years past have never seen that. (That is a huge point) Also, I do not think that anyone went to CPZ to make a career out of it. They went there to get to mainline!
Serious, that you can not see a cost saving. Really do you not want CPZ on the mainline list? If so, why not? Does that hurt you?
Also do not type the CPZ FO's give them an SIC type. Huge savings there.
You will have some movement off that seat. No doubt about it, but you need to realize that it will be a lot less than the current arrangement.
Initially you would see movement as we all did when DAL opened its doors, but after a while people get to a place they like. The left seat of a 175 is a nice place for a lot of people. We have guys on bypass in the left seat of the 190/95 at some operators. They could have come back to a pay raise and a bigger jet, but opted to stay put until their QOL at DAL matched what they had doing this "RJ" job.
Under the current agreement the list at CPZ gets flushed every four years. Even DAL's junior jets of years past have never seen that. (That is a huge point) Also, I do not think that anyone went to CPZ to make a career out of it. They went there to get to mainline!
Seriously I don't see the cost saving. A total of 83 training cycles can occur with the flow through each year once hiring starts. It would take 4 years to flush the list. With a staple every pilot can bid off not just 83. Like you said in 4 years there will be a ton of hiring and i've heard around 400 a year. That means all 332 could potentially bid off. I'm not saying all will but definitely more than 83 given current FO pay.
I would love to have compass on the list. Along with expressjet at CAL and Eagle at American I just don't see it happening being cost neutral because of training. It can only make the industry better if the flying if brought back to mainline. It's better for everyone.
If you add that pilots might stay at delta, in the compass plane if it were actually delta, rather then go to another airline when they start hiring, I see more savings. Getting rid of redundant management at the regionals and I can see savings. I just don't see it in training cycles unless the pay was drastically improved on that plane to prevent movement.
by the way what kind of cost savings do you get with a SIC vs. PIC type. I have both and didn't really see a difference in training
02-03-2009, 11:33 AM
#238
Line Holder
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: EMB 145 CA/FO
Posts: 71
As a wholly owned regional pilot I would only be interested in working for a major who protects scope. AA, CAL, UPS, FedEx or Alaska seam have done it well so far. DAL, USairways and UAL have gave up on scope to protect work rules and pay, now look at them .
I know APA is in contract negations and they PLAN on protecting scope.
Hot Items
http://www.apanegotiations.com/LinkC...bid=65&mid=448
APA Proposal 1.C.1
SCOPE
All flying performed by or on behalf of the Company or Affiliate shall be performed by pilots on the American Airlines Seniority List in accordance with the terms and conditions of this agreement.
Will that happen? Probably not, they will give it up to get back some pay or work rules. Protecting scope with a regional can be done with out too much added cost. You cannot staple unless it’s wholly owned company. If it is then build fences on pay and work rules.
I know APA is in contract negations and they PLAN on protecting scope.
Hot Items
http://www.apanegotiations.com/LinkC...bid=65&mid=448
APA Proposal 1.C.1
SCOPE
All flying performed by or on behalf of the Company or Affiliate shall be performed by pilots on the American Airlines Seniority List in accordance with the terms and conditions of this agreement.
Will that happen? Probably not, they will give it up to get back some pay or work rules. Protecting scope with a regional can be done with out too much added cost. You cannot staple unless it’s wholly owned company. If it is then build fences on pay and work rules.
02-03-2009, 11:36 AM
#239
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,535
02-03-2009, 11:39 AM
#240
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
I don't think its arrogance. I think its pride. I know that to get to DAL I had been flying for 14 years. Flight instruction, college flight team, ferried aircraft, night freight, regional. I worked hard, studied long and maintained a flawless record for checkrides. I prepared hard for the interview because DAL was ALWAYS my destination. I am guarded about a 200 hour wonder becoming a DAL pilot and not going through similar hoops. I know the interview standards, the aptitude of many regional new hires is no where near the same level as a new-hire at DAL. Its not ego or arrogance. Its reality. That has nothing to do with protecting one's flying however.
I used to talk to instructors (727) who said I was way more qualified then their students back in the 70's. I had about 700 hours at the time. Somehow we as pilots think we are getting screwed if others don't go through the same stuff as us. We all go through way to much to get to the majors and it's only getting harder with the increase in pilots at the regionals. Why not just help anyone we can out.
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