Delta Payscale For Crj900?
02-03-2009, 08:28 AM
#202
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
You make it sound like we desired to give up that flying with guys on the street or that we wanted to loosen scope. The hard bitter facts are that Compass and the 76 seat jet was born from the end of the Bankruptcy contract gun. Not much of a choice. Reminds me of the comedian Jack Benny's skit where the mugger holds him up and demands;'Your money or your life'...repeats it twice until Jack replies...'I'm thinking..I'm thinking'Compass is here because we had no choice. There shouldn't be one Compass pilot out there who thinks ANY NW pilot owes him any respect or a job.
Compass is here because you felt you had no choice not because you didn't have a choice. There is a big difference.
02-03-2009, 08:29 AM
#203
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Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
Correct once jets came around they started switching to them but when did props disappear?
I still see props all the time. There are scope clauses out there that allow 70+ seat props but not 70+ seat jets. Why is that?
The change didn't happen overnight. It was a gradual change just like the 50 seat jet to the 70 seat to the 90 seat. Pilots say, what do I care I'm never gonna fly it anyway. I saw 50 seat pilots say that about props that were disappearing at there own company and given to someone else.
I still see props all the time. There are scope clauses out there that allow 70+ seat props but not 70+ seat jets. Why is that?
The change didn't happen overnight. It was a gradual change just like the 50 seat jet to the 70 seat to the 90 seat. Pilots say, what do I care I'm never gonna fly it anyway. I saw 50 seat pilots say that about props that were disappearing at there own company and given to someone else.
With the backlash on turboprops in the mid 90s, the RJ exploded. The rest is history. It was never intended to be a mainline replacement and mainline pilots did not accurately predict the future with it. Ever wonder why a CRJ200 doesn't climb well past the mid 20s? Its because it was supposed to replace props on flights under 300 miles so it was never going to be flying 2-3 hour missions where altitude counts.
Any pilot who doesn't care is incredibly myopic as they're to stupid to realize what's at stake. All of us who've come of age in the airline industry in the past 15 years get it. We've either been a part of the outsourcing (I'm a former regional pilot) or we've been outsourced (I was furloughed from '01-'06). We know what's at stake.
Last edited by DAL4EVER; 02-03-2009 at 09:26 AM.
02-03-2009, 08:32 AM
#204
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Correct once jets came around they started switching to them but when did props disappear?
I still see props all the time. There are scope clauses out there that allow 70+ seat props but not 70+ seat jets. Why is that?
The change didn't happen overnight. It was a gradual change just like the 50 seat jet to the 70 seat to the 90 seat. Pilots say, what do I care I'm never gonna fly it anyway. I saw 50 seat pilots say that about props that were disappearing at there own company and given to someone else.
I still see props all the time. There are scope clauses out there that allow 70+ seat props but not 70+ seat jets. Why is that?
The change didn't happen overnight. It was a gradual change just like the 50 seat jet to the 70 seat to the 90 seat. Pilots say, what do I care I'm never gonna fly it anyway. I saw 50 seat pilots say that about props that were disappearing at there own company and given to someone else.
There is a possibility of a 76 seat Turboprop doing so, but less of a chance due to its speed and range capabilities.
Heck when DFW was open we had ASA 70 seat jets going DFW-OAK. It is a 4 hr flt in that jet. ****. DAL used to fly three 90's a day to DCA and 727's to JFK out of DFW. The were full. They went to RJ's and the loads died. They then ended. Even after DFW closed we had 900's doing JFK. It is now down to one flight a day from three then two now one. Why? because it is too fricken long to be in that jet. Its loads are getting bad enough that they may cut that one too. (I know that is not the question, but it is part of the problem)
02-03-2009, 08:34 AM
#205
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Same reason that DAL decided to sign a 10 year contract with FSI for ASA's sim time. When you open the books and realize how cheap you are getting the sim time you keep it. DAL could not compete with how cheap the cost per hr was for the sims at FSI in ATL.
Also, when CPZ was created and ASA was bought, there was this thought in the back of their mind that one day they would be sold. It is a lot easier to sell something cancel its flying etc when you do not have any relation to its training pipeline.
Also, DAL just acquired CPZ. Give em time. See what we do.
Also, when CPZ was created and ASA was bought, there was this thought in the back of their mind that one day they would be sold. It is a lot easier to sell something cancel its flying etc when you do not have any relation to its training pipeline.
Also, DAL just acquired CPZ. Give em time. See what we do.
02-03-2009, 08:37 AM
#206
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
When Delta and NW went into BK, their wholly-owneds went into BK with them. The wholly-owneds took huge cuts to fleets, pay, and workrules.
The wholly-owneds aren't flying for multiple mainlines.
When an independent CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is free to try.
When a wholly-owned CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is hog-tied by the intentions of the mainline who gives him his marching orders.
The wholly-owneds aren't flying for multiple mainlines.
When an independent CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is free to try.
When a wholly-owned CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is hog-tied by the intentions of the mainline who gives him his marching orders.
02-03-2009, 08:37 AM
#207
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Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
Because a 70 or 76 seat prop cannot go from ATL to BIL. The 900's that ASA is getting will be doing that route. Those 76 seat and 70 seat jets take over what is mainline flying.
There is a possibility of a 76 seat Turboprop doing so, but less of a chance due to its speed and range capabilities.
Heck when DFW was open we had ASA 70 seat jets going DFW-OAK. It is a 4 hr flt in that jet. ****. DAL used to fly three 90's a day to DCA and 727's to JFK out of DFW. The were full. They went to RJ's and the loads died. They then ended. Even after DFW closed we had 900's doing JFK. It is now down to one flight a day from three then two now one. Why? because it is too fricken long to be in that jet. Its loads are getting bad enough that they may cut that one too. (I know that is not the question, but it is part of the problem)
There is a possibility of a 76 seat Turboprop doing so, but less of a chance due to its speed and range capabilities.
Heck when DFW was open we had ASA 70 seat jets going DFW-OAK. It is a 4 hr flt in that jet. ****. DAL used to fly three 90's a day to DCA and 727's to JFK out of DFW. The were full. They went to RJ's and the loads died. They then ended. Even after DFW closed we had 900's doing JFK. It is now down to one flight a day from three then two now one. Why? because it is too fricken long to be in that jet. Its loads are getting bad enough that they may cut that one too. (I know that is not the question, but it is part of the problem)
Finally, Hauenstein came in who hates the RJ product. Time will tell what happens. He could also be for the Compass deal as he prefers the DAL product whenever he can schedule it.
02-03-2009, 08:39 AM
#208
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Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
02-03-2009, 08:45 AM
#209
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Joined APC: Apr 2008
Position: LAX ERA
Posts: 3,457
I talked to a bunch of nwa pilots when that TA came out and not 1 gave a rats ars about the creation of newco. I'm sure there were some but I didn't meet any... and no that number is much higher than 2.
Compass is here because you felt you had no choice not because you didn't have a choice. There is a big difference.
Compass is here because you felt you had no choice not because you didn't have a choice. There is a big difference.
I voted no on the bankruptcy contract over NewCo (Compass) and the duration. I had no delusions that much would change but those were my two big issues.
History is fun to discuss, but that's what it is........history.
Ferd
02-03-2009, 08:48 AM
#210
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
First with the statue quo you have an almost guarantee that people are going to move. With a staple and on the same certificate and list there is a very strong possibility that people would stay put.
Pay would change, not much but to make it advantageous to stay put. Management would do that. They did it with us. That is why you do not see people sport bidding these days. The 777 and 765 go mostly senior, but you look at the 73N and 767 domestic and there are some very senior pilots on there. Why? because the money is not worth the crappy sked, and being up all night. But, the 777 and 765 pay is.
Heck we even have guys that are below 1000 on the seniority list that stay in the right seat. Why? QOL. The pay scales do not promote up bidding.
Same holds true with every seat. Look at pilots that were hired at DAL in the last two years. Many could have bid off the 88 for those big jets, but did not. Why? QOL.
Same holds true at a regional. Look at airlines that have two airplanes or more on their cert. You see some very senior ones that do not go to the 700 or 900. Why? QOL. The extra pay is not worth losing my vacation, and weekends off. I was that way. I did not go to the senior equipment until I had to. I like QOL.
Same here, if it gets bad enough on the 767, I will bid something that allows me to bid senior reserve and sit at home, with weekends off. That is my QOL choice. I could have gone to the ER but chose not to. Why? QOL.
There are those that will chase the next biggest jet, and pay rate. Every airline has them. The CP's here at DAL tell the new hires to shy away from it, because if you have a family it effects them. It is good advice.
Same will hold true with CPZ. People will bid QOL, and new jets, but it will save training events. Trust me. Do you want weekends off versus 10K a year? Sit in your RJ for a year or two longer. I for one would jump on the opportunity to sit in an RJ on the mainline list and park it. If the RJ's were on the list when I was flying them, I would still be on it. The only reason I went to the 767 was to get a type and time in case a furlough to my seniority became necessary. It was self preservation. Not that I wanted to be junior. I was a choice I made to preserve my QOL for me and my family if I lost my job.
Pay would change, not much but to make it advantageous to stay put. Management would do that. They did it with us. That is why you do not see people sport bidding these days. The 777 and 765 go mostly senior, but you look at the 73N and 767 domestic and there are some very senior pilots on there. Why? because the money is not worth the crappy sked, and being up all night. But, the 777 and 765 pay is.
Heck we even have guys that are below 1000 on the seniority list that stay in the right seat. Why? QOL. The pay scales do not promote up bidding.
Same holds true with every seat. Look at pilots that were hired at DAL in the last two years. Many could have bid off the 88 for those big jets, but did not. Why? QOL.
Same holds true at a regional. Look at airlines that have two airplanes or more on their cert. You see some very senior ones that do not go to the 700 or 900. Why? QOL. The extra pay is not worth losing my vacation, and weekends off. I was that way. I did not go to the senior equipment until I had to. I like QOL.
Same here, if it gets bad enough on the 767, I will bid something that allows me to bid senior reserve and sit at home, with weekends off. That is my QOL choice. I could have gone to the ER but chose not to. Why? QOL.
There are those that will chase the next biggest jet, and pay rate. Every airline has them. The CP's here at DAL tell the new hires to shy away from it, because if you have a family it effects them. It is good advice.
Same will hold true with CPZ. People will bid QOL, and new jets, but it will save training events. Trust me. Do you want weekends off versus 10K a year? Sit in your RJ for a year or two longer. I for one would jump on the opportunity to sit in an RJ on the mainline list and park it. If the RJ's were on the list when I was flying them, I would still be on it. The only reason I went to the 767 was to get a type and time in case a furlough to my seniority became necessary. It was self preservation. Not that I wanted to be junior. I was a choice I made to preserve my QOL for me and my family if I lost my job.
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