Delta Payscale For Crj900?
02-03-2009, 07:54 AM
#192
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
Exactly, DOH would be a huge windfall for regional pilots, it is totally unfair to mainline. Although, I think it should be a staple job with a 1 year fence. That way the pilot has time to prepare themselves for a possible displacement.
02-03-2009, 07:56 AM
#193
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Position: blueJet
Posts: 4,535
The wholly-owneds aren't flying for multiple mainlines.
When an independent CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is free to try.
When a wholly-owned CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is hog-tied by the intentions of the mainline who gives him his marching orders.
02-03-2009, 07:59 AM
#194
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
I get all this but you have to ask. Is the dog wagging the tail or the tail wagging the dog. Delta now owns compass and if it's cheaper to do training in house they should do that. Otherwise there is another agenda or poor management.
Why didn't NWA have the training done in house? They planned on having the 787 done in house. I hear there is even a 787 sim up there right now. Why didn't they get a 175 sim and do it in house. (there were even more firm orders for the 175 than the 787) One of the reasons I heard is they planned on selling off compass in the future. It was never in their long term plans. It was just one more piece in the whipsaw game.
If it's cheaper to do it in house I'm sure delta can get compass on board to have it done in house.
Why didn't NWA have the training done in house? They planned on having the 787 done in house. I hear there is even a 787 sim up there right now. Why didn't they get a 175 sim and do it in house. (there were even more firm orders for the 175 than the 787) One of the reasons I heard is they planned on selling off compass in the future. It was never in their long term plans. It was just one more piece in the whipsaw game.
If it's cheaper to do it in house I'm sure delta can get compass on board to have it done in house.
I dealt with some of Compass training management when they were working on the certificate. Embraer was going to provide the training or access to training as a carrot for buying the airplanes. It made no sense for NWA to provide the training as an expense when it was something that a manufacturer was going to give.
02-03-2009, 08:01 AM
#195
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
I see where you logic is, but I can tell you that from a training perspective it is cheaper to have them on the list. This flow is going to be quite costly for Delta. They know it too.
Let me try to explain this and how the filling of vacancies here at DAL works. See when we are in the hiring mode, we have an AE. Once the awards are posted we have holes that need to be filled. They are filled by new hires. Currently they go in to almost every jet here. That will change as the dynamic of the group changes, but they have to come from somewhere.
Now lets look at the CPZ flow. The rates and amounts per year have been established a few pages back. I guarantee that every time DAL has a class the max number of flow up will take the flow. It may not be in direct seniority order, but the slots will be filled. It is a use it or lose it deal for those guys. They might not like what they are flowing in to, but they need to take it or be suck at CPZ. They will take it and the result is a guarantee of at least 83 slots per year at CPZ that need to be trained. In essence you get two years out of each CA type. It breaks even but nothing more.
Now if this jet was on the mainline list, these said individuals would have the option of "bidding up" to larger jets when they want to, not when they need to for the terms of the flow agreement. This allows QOL for those who choose it on a 175, and advancement for those that want to chase the metal. Where the cost savings are realized is here.
Lets say that I do not want to go though training again, since I just was hired two years ago at CPZ and then CA upgrade. Last thing I want to do is go to training on a jet that I will be bottom reserve on. I stay put, enjoy my schedule and wait a few AE's before I bid up. What this does is saves DAL a ton of training events. These suckers are costly. Literally, more costly than your yearly salary at CPZ. DAL gets to do one training event in that open jet (88, 9 etc) and not two or more. Over time it is an exponential cost savings to the company.
See, in four years we start this wall of retirements. It does not stop until after 2034. We finally get a break there. Saving training events, even 1000 over 20 years is a huge cost savings to the company. It is literally 49 million. That is enough dough to buy a few jets. Under the flow 83 per year for 20 years is 1660 flow troughs that is over 81 million in training costs just for the flow.
Get the picture??
Let me try to explain this and how the filling of vacancies here at DAL works. See when we are in the hiring mode, we have an AE. Once the awards are posted we have holes that need to be filled. They are filled by new hires. Currently they go in to almost every jet here. That will change as the dynamic of the group changes, but they have to come from somewhere.
Now lets look at the CPZ flow. The rates and amounts per year have been established a few pages back. I guarantee that every time DAL has a class the max number of flow up will take the flow. It may not be in direct seniority order, but the slots will be filled. It is a use it or lose it deal for those guys. They might not like what they are flowing in to, but they need to take it or be suck at CPZ. They will take it and the result is a guarantee of at least 83 slots per year at CPZ that need to be trained. In essence you get two years out of each CA type. It breaks even but nothing more.
Now if this jet was on the mainline list, these said individuals would have the option of "bidding up" to larger jets when they want to, not when they need to for the terms of the flow agreement. This allows QOL for those who choose it on a 175, and advancement for those that want to chase the metal. Where the cost savings are realized is here.
Lets say that I do not want to go though training again, since I just was hired two years ago at CPZ and then CA upgrade. Last thing I want to do is go to training on a jet that I will be bottom reserve on. I stay put, enjoy my schedule and wait a few AE's before I bid up. What this does is saves DAL a ton of training events. These suckers are costly. Literally, more costly than your yearly salary at CPZ. DAL gets to do one training event in that open jet (88, 9 etc) and not two or more. Over time it is an exponential cost savings to the company.
See, in four years we start this wall of retirements. It does not stop until after 2034. We finally get a break there. Saving training events, even 1000 over 20 years is a huge cost savings to the company. It is literally 49 million. That is enough dough to buy a few jets. Under the flow 83 per year for 20 years is 1660 flow troughs that is over 81 million in training costs just for the flow.
Get the picture??
Let's say that every 175 captain stays in there seat. That still leaves 166 175 FO's that would most likely bid out at the first AE that is available. The pay would have to go way up to keep people in the right seat of a 175 because as it sits right now their highest pay ($42 at year 8) isn't even what your new hires get ($52).
02-03-2009, 08:03 AM
#196
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2007
Position: 88B - Loud Pipes Save Lives
Posts: 1,597
When Delta and NW went into BK, their wholly-owneds went into BK with them. The wholly-owneds took huge cuts to fleets, pay, and workrules.
The wholly-owneds aren't flying for multiple mainlines.
When an independent CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is free to try.
When a wholly-owned CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is hog-tied by the intentions of the mainline who gives him his marching orders.
The wholly-owneds aren't flying for multiple mainlines.
When an independent CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is free to try.
When a wholly-owned CEO wants to make his regional the best it can be, he is hog-tied by the intentions of the mainline who gives him his marching orders.
02-03-2009, 08:07 AM
#197
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
I get all this but you have to ask. Is the dog wagging the tail or the tail wagging the dog. Delta now owns compass and if it's cheaper to do training in house they should do that. Otherwise there is another agenda or poor management.
Why didn't NWA have the training done in house? They planned on having the 787 done in house. I hear there is even a 787 sim up there right now. Why didn't they get a 175 sim and do it in house. (there were even more firm orders for the 175 than the 787) One of the reasons I heard is they planned on selling off compass in the future. It was never in their long term plans. It was just one more piece in the whipsaw game.
If it's cheaper to do it in house I'm sure delta can get compass on board to have it done in house.
Why didn't NWA have the training done in house? They planned on having the 787 done in house. I hear there is even a 787 sim up there right now. Why didn't they get a 175 sim and do it in house. (there were even more firm orders for the 175 than the 787) One of the reasons I heard is they planned on selling off compass in the future. It was never in their long term plans. It was just one more piece in the whipsaw game.
If it's cheaper to do it in house I'm sure delta can get compass on board to have it done in house.
Same reason that DAL decided to sign a 10 year contract with FSI for ASA's sim time. When you open the books and realize how cheap you are getting the sim time you keep it. DAL could not compete with how cheap the cost per hr was for the sims at FSI in ATL.
Also, when CPZ was created and ASA was bought, there was this thought in the back of their mind that one day they would be sold. It is a lot easier to sell something cancel its flying etc when you do not have any relation to its training pipeline.
Also, DAL just acquired CPZ. Give em time. See what we do.
02-03-2009, 08:13 AM
#198
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
"A. They all had props until the pilot's became too good to fly them."
Incorrect. They all had props until jets came along and could fly at 550 mph vs. 250 mph. Faster speeds meant more productivity. More productivity meant higher profits. That's why people cross oceans via airplanes not oceanliners now. They can get across the ocean in half a day vs. a week. You cross oceans on a boat if that's the purpose of your crossing. You cross oceans via airplane if you want to get there quickly. Props disappeared because jets offered a two-fold increase in speed and a dramatic increase in safety. Not because we became to "good" to fly them.
Incorrect. They all had props until jets came along and could fly at 550 mph vs. 250 mph. Faster speeds meant more productivity. More productivity meant higher profits. That's why people cross oceans via airplanes not oceanliners now. They can get across the ocean in half a day vs. a week. You cross oceans on a boat if that's the purpose of your crossing. You cross oceans via airplane if you want to get there quickly. Props disappeared because jets offered a two-fold increase in speed and a dramatic increase in safety. Not because we became to "good" to fly them.
I still see props all the time. There are scope clauses out there that allow 70+ seat props but not 70+ seat jets. Why is that?
The change didn't happen overnight. It was a gradual change just like the 50 seat jet to the 70 seat to the 90 seat. Pilots say, what do I care I'm never gonna fly it anyway. I saw 50 seat pilots say that about props that were disappearing at there own company and given to someone else.
02-03-2009, 08:15 AM
#199
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Guess what?/ That is the next battle when it comes to scope. DAL/AF is a major danger to are wide body flying. Just wait, we need some very restrictive language on that too.
From what I have seen this management team is different, but if we keep up with history they will be gone and then next team will be back to outsourcing flying again.
From what I have seen this management team is different, but if we keep up with history they will be gone and then next team will be back to outsourcing flying again.
02-03-2009, 08:25 AM
#200
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
So what kind of seat locks do new hires have? Can they move to bigger equipment at the first opportunity?
Let's say that every 175 captain stays in there seat. That still leaves 166 175 FO's that would most likely bid out at the first AE that is available. The pay would have to go way up to keep people in the right seat of a 175 because as it sits right now their highest pay ($42 at year 8) isn't even what your new hires get ($52).
Let's say that every 175 captain stays in there seat. That still leaves 166 175 FO's that would most likely bid out at the first AE that is available. The pay would have to go way up to keep people in the right seat of a 175 because as it sits right now their highest pay ($42 at year 8) isn't even what your new hires get ($52).
First with the statue quo you have an almost guarantee that people are going to move. With a staple and on the same certificate and list there is a very strong possibility that people would stay put.
Pay would change, not much but to make it advantageous to stay put. Management would do that. They did it with us. That is why you do not see people sport bidding these days. The 777 and 765 go mostly senior, but you look at the 73N and 767 domestic and there are some very senior pilots on there. Why? because the money is not worth the crappy sked, and being up all night. But, the 777 and 765 pay is.
Heck we even have guys that are below 1000 on the seniority list that stay in the right seat. Why? QOL. The pay scales do not promote up bidding.
Same holds true with every seat. Look at pilots that were hired at DAL in the last two years. Many could have bid off the 88 for those big jets, but did not. Why? QOL.
Same holds true at a regional. Look at airlines that have two airplanes or more on their cert. You see some very senior ones that do not go to the 700 or 900. Why? QOL. The extra pay is not worth losing my vacation, and weekends off. I was that way. I did not go to the senior equipment until I had to. I like QOL.
Same here, if it gets bad enough on the 767, I will bid something that allows me to bid senior reserve and sit at home, with weekends off. That is my QOL choice. I could have gone to the ER but chose not to. Why? QOL.
There are those that will chase the next biggest jet, and pay rate. Every airline has them. The CP's here at DAL tell the new hires to shy away from it, because if you have a family it effects them. It is good advice.
Same will hold true with CPZ. People will bid QOL, and new jets, but it will save training events. Trust me. Do you want weekends off versus 10K a year? Sit in your RJ for a year or two longer. I for one would jump on the opportunity to sit in an RJ on the mainline list and park it. If the RJ's were on the list when I was flying them, I would still be on it. The only reason I went to the 767 was to get a type and time in case a furlough to my seniority became necessary. It was self preservation. Not that I wanted to be junior. I was a choice I made to preserve my QOL for me and my family if I lost my job.
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