Delta Payscale For Crj900?
02-03-2009, 06:36 AM
#171
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Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
You're not getting it. When DAL starts hiring then Compass guys flow up. Then Compass must replace the flow ups. DAL must train the flow ups, plus pay for the outsourced training for Compass. If Compass was brought in house, then training is done in house and the costs are far more controllable.
Delta owns compass, right. Where is it written that the training can't be done in house right now. I would be shocked if it said it couldn't be.
Let's say delta has to hire 80 pilots a month. Right now only 20 can come to delta from compass. That is 100 training cycles. 60 (off the street) + 20 (compass flow ups) + 20 (replacements at compass) =100. Once 83 compass pilots have flown up then they don't have to take them anymore. Now it's only 80 training cycles. All of them are off the street hires. This is roughly 4 months into hiring.
Let's now say that compass is stapled. Delta hires 80 a month assuming growth/retirement are from larger equipment. That could be 160 training cycles (assuming all move out of the 175) 80 (out of the 175 to bigger equipment) + 80 (to replace the 175 pilots, the actual new hires) = 160. At current pay most pilots would not stay in a 175. Some will but most wouldn't unless the pay was changed.
That's a potential of 60 more training cycles per month for the first 4 months and then 80 a month after that.
Add to this that a staple would start longevity pay for 175 pilots and the first time they see larger equipment could be at year 2 pay. That costs money or do the compass pilots already get longevity pay?
So what am I not getting?
02-03-2009, 06:36 AM
#172
:-)
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Posts: 7,339
True, however it would have been E175's for you as well were it not for the CRJ200 leases they needed to get out of. My point is NWA thought the E175 series a better platform, however they were locked into the leases and the only that Bombardier would let them out was to buy the CRJ900, so we split the order.
02-03-2009, 06:38 AM
#173
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
The argument you're making is a dangerous one, it represents the very essence of why we are where we are today. The CRJ200/700/900 and even the Saab are mainline products. The seats are advertised as mainline and are sold by mainline. The difference is the pilots that fly them. You can't make the argument that since the plane can pass for mainline a certain pilot group should be considered a mainline pilot. It's that thinking that ruined this profession in the first place.
Nothing personal but it sounds like you mainline guys do not want the RJ/ERJ or any turboprop on the mainline list because you might get stuck in it if times get rough. Maybe there is another pay cut or work rules give away down the road so that won't happen :'(
Nothing personal but it sounds like you mainline guys do not want the RJ/ERJ or any turboprop on the mainline list because you might get stuck in it if times get rough. Maybe there is another pay cut or work rules give away down the road so that won't happen :'(
02-03-2009, 06:41 AM
#175
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,342
The argument you're making is a dangerous one, it represents the very essence of why we are where we are today. The CRJ200/700/900 and even the Saab are mainline products. The seats are advertised as mainline and are sold by mainline. The difference is the pilots that fly them. You can't make the argument that since the plane can pass for mainline a certain pilot group should be considered a mainline pilot. It's that thinking that ruined this profession in the first place.
Nothing personal but it sounds like you mainline guys do not want the RJ/ERJ or any turboprop on the mainline list because you might get stuck in it if times get rough. Maybe there is another pay cut or work rules give away down the road so that won't happen :'(
Nothing personal but it sounds like you mainline guys do not want the RJ/ERJ or any turboprop on the mainline list because you might get stuck in it if times get rough. Maybe there is another pay cut or work rules give away down the road so that won't happen :'(
02-03-2009, 06:50 AM
#176
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 2,002
Thats great that most people on the board supports compass being stapled! As being in the first batch of captains to come to compass, we had were told what a unique situation we were in. When NW annouced they were going to start hiring, we pleaded with the NWMEC to staple us before any new hires came on the property. We thought it only fair since we were due paying members on the NWMEC! We were told they understood the problem of this situation, and we were told "we are looking into it, but trust us we know whats best". We offered many different proposals from ghost #s to a quicker flow to name a few. The NWMEC were blowing a lot of sunshine up our butts, but no action was ever taken. After NW stopped hiring, we came to the NWMEC again for some flow relieve, and described all the same advantages that all of you are saying on this forum, but again the NWMEC said "we understand and we're working for you" but nothing was ever done. We even a had a resolution all ready to be brought up at the next LEC meeting, but the LEC chair called us the night before telling us we shouldn't do it because we didn't have the support. At that time cpz was having a hard time finding enough qualified pilots, since all the capt positions were filled and airlines were still hiring. Supposingly the NWMEC was waiting for NW to come to them for relieve of the 1500 hr hiring min, in which they would try to negotiate the E175 back to mainline or so that was their philosophy in not supporting our staple. Then the whole Delta merger, so when we brought anything up again about a staple, we were told "we too busy to worry about you right know, we saved your flow so just be happy with that". I understand our unique situation, and how it would make since for us to be the first one to cross that bridge, but coming from our last experience with the NWMEC their is a lot of talk, but no action. I'm have no idea the feelings of the new DMEC, or of Delta management concering our future. Some of you on this board seem to have some relevent sources, and I appreciate sharing some of it with us. Hopefully we can learn from the last 10 yrs or so, and come up with a resolution that would benefit all of our careers.
A friend of mine is a very senior captain with you guys and he was told that he would flow over in 30 months. Having been told that, why do you think you should be stapled before the new hires once they started hiring. Were you told something different as to when you would flow up?
On a side note my buddy also heard that NWA wouldn't be hiring for a while either. Not sure of who told him that but he still knew it would be 30 months before he could flow up.
02-03-2009, 06:52 AM
#177
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
Delta owns compass, right. Where is it written that the training can't be done in house right now. I would be shocked if it said it couldn't be.
Let's say delta has to hire 80 pilots a month. Right now only 20 can come to delta from compass. That is 100 training cycles. 60 (off the street) + 20 (compass flow ups) + 20 (replacements at compass) =100. Once 83 compass pilots have flown up then they don't have to take them anymore. Now it's only 80 training cycles. All of them are off the street hires. This is roughly 4 months into hiring.
Let's now say that compass is stapled. Delta hires 80 a month assuming growth/retirement are from larger equipment. That could be 160 training cycles (assuming all move out of the 175) 80 (out of the 175 to bigger equipment) + 80 (to replace the 175 pilots, the actual new hires) = 160. At current pay most pilots would not stay in a 175. Some will but most wouldn't unless the pay was changed.
That's a potential of 60 more training cycles per month for the first 4 months and then 80 a month after that.
Add to this that a staple would start longevity pay for 175 pilots and the first time they see larger equipment could be at year 2 pay. That costs money or do the compass pilots already get longevity pay?
So what am I not getting?
Let's say delta has to hire 80 pilots a month. Right now only 20 can come to delta from compass. That is 100 training cycles. 60 (off the street) + 20 (compass flow ups) + 20 (replacements at compass) =100. Once 83 compass pilots have flown up then they don't have to take them anymore. Now it's only 80 training cycles. All of them are off the street hires. This is roughly 4 months into hiring.
Let's now say that compass is stapled. Delta hires 80 a month assuming growth/retirement are from larger equipment. That could be 160 training cycles (assuming all move out of the 175) 80 (out of the 175 to bigger equipment) + 80 (to replace the 175 pilots, the actual new hires) = 160. At current pay most pilots would not stay in a 175. Some will but most wouldn't unless the pay was changed.
That's a potential of 60 more training cycles per month for the first 4 months and then 80 a month after that.
Add to this that a staple would start longevity pay for 175 pilots and the first time they see larger equipment could be at year 2 pay. That costs money or do the compass pilots already get longevity pay?
So what am I not getting?
Let me try to explain this and how the filling of vacancies here at DAL works. See when we are in the hiring mode, we have an AE. Once the awards are posted we have holes that need to be filled. They are filled by new hires. Currently they go in to almost every jet here. That will change as the dynamic of the group changes, but they have to come from somewhere.
Now lets look at the CPZ flow. The rates and amounts per year have been established a few pages back. I guarantee that every time DAL has a class the max number of flow up will take the flow. It may not be in direct seniority order, but the slots will be filled. It is a use it or lose it deal for those guys. They might not like what they are flowing in to, but they need to take it or be suck at CPZ. They will take it and the result is a guarantee of at least 83 slots per year at CPZ that need to be trained. In essence you get two years out of each CA type. It breaks even but nothing more.
Now if this jet was on the mainline list, these said individuals would have the option of "bidding up" to larger jets when they want to, not when they need to for the terms of the flow agreement. This allows QOL for those who choose it on a 175, and advancement for those that want to chase the metal. Where the cost savings are realized is here.
Lets say that I do not want to go though training again, since I just was hired two years ago at CPZ and then CA upgrade. Last thing I want to do is go to training on a jet that I will be bottom reserve on. I stay put, enjoy my schedule and wait a few AE's before I bid up. What this does is saves DAL a ton of training events. These suckers are costly. Literally, more costly than your yearly salary at CPZ. DAL gets to do one training event in that open jet (88, 9 etc) and not two or more. Over time it is an exponential cost savings to the company.
See, in four years we start this wall of retirements. It does not stop until after 2034. We finally get a break there. Saving training events, even 1000 over 20 years is a huge cost savings to the company. It is literally 49 million. That is enough dough to buy a few jets. Under the flow 83 per year for 20 years is 1660 flow troughs that is over 81 million in training costs just for the flow.
Get the picture??
02-03-2009, 06:54 AM
#178
Happy to be here
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: A-320A
Posts: 18,563
We do what you are suggesting and we get no where to restoring this profession. I say staple them. It is by far the easiest and cheapest thing to do. Take ego out of it.
02-03-2009, 06:55 AM
#179
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Posts: 1,001
The argument you're making is a dangerous one, it represents the very essence of why we are where we are today. The CRJ200/700/900 and even the Saab are mainline products. The seats are advertised as mainline and are sold by mainline. The difference is the pilots that fly them. You can't make the argument that since the plane can pass for mainline a certain pilot group should be considered a mainline pilot. It's that thinking that ruined this profession in the first place.
Nothing personal but it sounds like you mainline guys do not want the RJ/ERJ or any turboprop on the mainline list because you might get stuck in it if times get rough.
Maybe there is another pay cut or work rules give away down the road so that won't happen :'(
02-03-2009, 06:57 AM
#180
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2006
Position: 330 B
Posts: 1,623
I've never flown a CRJ or any of the EMB170 series, but I commute on them all the time, either JB on their 190 or DCI on a CRJ200/700/900. On occasion, I've also jumped on a USAir Express 170.
From a pax perspective, it's a night and day difference. There's just no way around it. As others have said, the 700/900 is an overgrown regional, the 170/190 is a mini airliner.
1. When I commute on a 700/900, it's an automatic gate check. The gate agents even make the announcement: "This is a small airplane with limited overhead space," and they always tag your bag. On the 170/190, I rarely have to check my bags. If I do, it's because the flight is completely full and I'm the last one on. And then I do it more as a convenience to the FAs so they don't have to waste time shuffling bags around trying find room for mine.
2. With the CRJ, there's a good chance you'll get a hard stand. With the EMB, because of its stance and size, you'll almost always get a jet bridge. Trust me, pax hate hard stands.
3. On the EMB, I can stand up and take a wizz. It's a little more difficult on the 700/900. (On the 200, forget about it.)
To all you CRJ900 drivers, I understand you have an affinity towards the airplane you fly. I've heard she's great to fly. Heck, I still smile when I see an EMB145 go by. But from a passenger standpoint, she's an inferior product, especially if you're going to try to pass it off as a "mainline" aircraft to your paying customers, and especially your educated traveler, which is also your best paying customer. I will bet that is one reason why they are using the 175 on the DCA-LGA shuttle instead of the 900. I think they would have gotten a backlash if it had been the other way around.
From a pax perspective, it's a night and day difference. There's just no way around it. As others have said, the 700/900 is an overgrown regional, the 170/190 is a mini airliner.
1. When I commute on a 700/900, it's an automatic gate check. The gate agents even make the announcement: "This is a small airplane with limited overhead space," and they always tag your bag. On the 170/190, I rarely have to check my bags. If I do, it's because the flight is completely full and I'm the last one on. And then I do it more as a convenience to the FAs so they don't have to waste time shuffling bags around trying find room for mine.
2. With the CRJ, there's a good chance you'll get a hard stand. With the EMB, because of its stance and size, you'll almost always get a jet bridge. Trust me, pax hate hard stands.
3. On the EMB, I can stand up and take a wizz. It's a little more difficult on the 700/900. (On the 200, forget about it.)
To all you CRJ900 drivers, I understand you have an affinity towards the airplane you fly. I've heard she's great to fly. Heck, I still smile when I see an EMB145 go by. But from a passenger standpoint, she's an inferior product, especially if you're going to try to pass it off as a "mainline" aircraft to your paying customers, and especially your educated traveler, which is also your best paying customer. I will bet that is one reason why they are using the 175 on the DCA-LGA shuttle instead of the 900. I think they would have gotten a backlash if it had been the other way around.
As far as the jetway/hardstand argument in DTW and MSP for example, ALL a/c from the Saab up to the whale use jetbridges. There is only one station we fly to where we don't use a jetway (sometimes) on the 900 and thats PWM. Additionally the rear lav of the 900 is pretty spacious. It's not the holy grail and it has its shortcomings...no doubt, but it ain't too shabby either.
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