CO 737 departs end of runway in DEN
12-23-2008, 11:05 AM
#81
New boss = Old boss
Joined APC: Mar 2005
Position: Ca B737
Posts: 2,762
You know, I thought the same thing when I saw him make that comment. He would have sounded more intelligent had he quoted the crosswind limitations for the aircraft in question. I take umbrage to a former NTSB official going after the crew so early on in the investigation...seemed unprofessional in my opinion.
That being said. I remember one of the more impressive lessons I learned in 737 training. We commonly use less than full power for take off. We can de-rate the engine and further assume a higher temperature for low weight take offs. Sometimes though we use full power even though we are light. Those times might be as necessary as wind sheer or as mundane as the first take off of the month.
What impressed me was a simulator demonstration where we used full power for a light weight take off. The instructor failed the engine (sudden seizure) at about 80 knots. Let me tell you I was not ready for the dramatic deviation from the runway center line and extreme difficulty in controlling the aircraft. If there had been a strong cross wind I'm sure I would have departed the pavement. As it was I was barely able to keep the jet on the runway.
It was a great learning experience and my takeoff technique has been much better ever since. It also made me a believer in reduced power take offs.
No one has mentioned an engine failure in the Continental incident. I'm just pointing out that there can be circumstances where the jet is hard to keep on the runway. The investigation will continue and we will know all the circumstances in due time. This is not going to be a mystery for much longer.
Kudos for the entire crew. Everyone made it out. That is testimony to good design and good training.
12-23-2008, 11:11 AM
#82
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: Delta Colors Busholio
Posts: 233
I haven't dug all the way through the post up to date, but would a rudder hardover still be possible after the revisions made back when? Maybe steering hardover? Just not buying the pilot error thing.
12-23-2008, 11:25 AM
#83
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jul 2007
Posts: 758
DENVER, Colorado (CNN) -- Early indications show no problems with the landing gear, tires or brakes on the Continental Airlines jet that veered off a runway at Denver International Airport in Colorado, despite earlier reports.
"There's no indication from the physical examination on the scene of brake problems at this time," said Robert Sumwalt, a National Transportation Safety Board member leading the investigation team.
Saturday's accident injured more than three dozen people, including the captain who piloted the plane.
Sumwalt said preliminary evidence indicated no problems with the Boeing 737's landing gear, tires or engines before the jet ran off the runway into a 40-foot-deep ravine during its take-off roll.
...Sumwalt said the cockpit voice recorder "shows nothing out of the ordinary" during the preflight operations. He said the recording revealed that 41 seconds after the brakes were released, there were sounds of bumping and rattling. Four seconds later, a crew member called for a rejected takeoff.
Flight 1404 was taking off about 6:18 p.m. Sumwalt said the plane reached a maximum speed of 119 knots (137 mph) before going into the ravine...
"There's no indication from the physical examination on the scene of brake problems at this time," said Robert Sumwalt, a National Transportation Safety Board member leading the investigation team.
Saturday's accident injured more than three dozen people, including the captain who piloted the plane.
Sumwalt said preliminary evidence indicated no problems with the Boeing 737's landing gear, tires or engines before the jet ran off the runway into a 40-foot-deep ravine during its take-off roll.
...Sumwalt said the cockpit voice recorder "shows nothing out of the ordinary" during the preflight operations. He said the recording revealed that 41 seconds after the brakes were released, there were sounds of bumping and rattling. Four seconds later, a crew member called for a rejected takeoff.
Flight 1404 was taking off about 6:18 p.m. Sumwalt said the plane reached a maximum speed of 119 knots (137 mph) before going into the ravine...
12-23-2008, 11:42 AM
#84
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2008
Position: RJ driver
Posts: 320
Correct. He was also the Human Factors chairman and instrumental in helping reorganize USAirways safety program during their "Five in Five" years. He won the annual Safety award before leaving for the NTSB. Good man. He might also be the first ALPA pilot on the NTSB. Anyone know?
12-23-2008, 12:56 PM
#87
On Reserve
Joined APC: Jun 2006
Position: 757/767 FO
Posts: 17
Co 1404
Greg Feith was on one of the news programs proclaiming that the crew will need to answer as to why they would take off with a 31 knot crosswind. As in true form with him, he didn't check the facts before engaging mouth. He just wants face time on the tube, any time he can get it.
Working for the NTSB and flying the line are two different things. I will wager my 12000+ hours, two types, and safety school diploma on that statement any day.
The Jetconsultant
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12-23-2008, 01:44 PM
#90
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Sep 2007
Posts: 1,240
Agreed. He his proven himself a tool with these latest comments.
That being said. I remember one of the more impressive lessons I learned in 737 training. We commonly use less than full power for take off. We can de-rate the engine and further assume a higher temperature for low weight take offs. Sometimes though we use full power even though we are light. Those times might be as necessary as wind sheer or as mundane as the first take off of the month.
What impressed me was a simulator demonstration where we used full power for a light weight take off. The instructor failed the engine (sudden seizure) at about 80 knots. Let me tell you I was not ready for the dramatic deviation from the runway center line and extreme difficulty in controlling the aircraft. If there had been a strong cross wind I'm sure I would have departed the pavement. As it was I was barely able to keep the jet on the runway.
It was a great learning experience and my takeoff technique has been much better ever since. It also made me a believer in reduced power take offs.
No one has mentioned an engine failure in the Continental incident. I'm just pointing out that there can be circumstances where the jet is hard to keep on the runway. The investigation will continue and we will know all the circumstances in due time. This is not going to be a mystery for much longer.
Kudos for the entire crew. Everyone made it out. That is testimony to good design and good training.
That being said. I remember one of the more impressive lessons I learned in 737 training. We commonly use less than full power for take off. We can de-rate the engine and further assume a higher temperature for low weight take offs. Sometimes though we use full power even though we are light. Those times might be as necessary as wind sheer or as mundane as the first take off of the month.
What impressed me was a simulator demonstration where we used full power for a light weight take off. The instructor failed the engine (sudden seizure) at about 80 knots. Let me tell you I was not ready for the dramatic deviation from the runway center line and extreme difficulty in controlling the aircraft. If there had been a strong cross wind I'm sure I would have departed the pavement. As it was I was barely able to keep the jet on the runway.
It was a great learning experience and my takeoff technique has been much better ever since. It also made me a believer in reduced power take offs.
No one has mentioned an engine failure in the Continental incident. I'm just pointing out that there can be circumstances where the jet is hard to keep on the runway. The investigation will continue and we will know all the circumstances in due time. This is not going to be a mystery for much longer.
Kudos for the entire crew. Everyone made it out. That is testimony to good design and good training.
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