ewrbasedpilot

Just jumpseated home this morning and the captain flying the flight said he'd spoken to a friend of his who'd just been at the scene in Denver. According to him (rumor, so please treat it as such), they've already torn apart the rudder and everything was functioning normally. Even if they had a rudder hardover, the tiller should still work since it overrides the pedals though, correct? Not that you'd think quick enough to jump back on the tiller at that high of a speed anyways, but it's a thought....

LASsociety

Seems like it would be easy to look at the FDR airspeed or ground speed readings and compare to the speed of the thumps, and whether they were increasing in frequency as the speed of the aircraft increased. That might help determine whether the noise in question was centerline lights. Obviously they are relatively excluded once the aircraft left the centerline. If the noise continues, it probably wasn't the centerline lights.

Romulus

The NTSB has a good reputation for resolving these issues and ALPA has their safety team working with them as a back up. It was ALPA which pushed for closer inspections of the rudder PCU's when Usair Flight 427 crashed 3 years after the mysterious crash of United flight 585.

They'll find out what happened, but they need time to go through all the data.

Skyone

Interesting. But on using the tiller at high speed or even medium speed-I won't touch that thing above 60kts for anything. Chance of oversteering is very very high. In fact, once take off power is applied, my own sop is to not touch that thing until below 30kts GS. I have sat in the right seat and watched a few captains use the tiller above 60kts. Let's just say that can make for an interesting ride. Even if I was departing the runway at a medium speed, I believe I would use rudder, differential thrust, braking, whatever and not even think about using the tiller-it would probably be useless with the high amountof velocity and mass working against it. Just my 2 cents.

ewrbasedpilot

I agree. When I take the runway, it's hands off the tiller for me until landing or unless there's a reject. It gets pretty squirrely above 18 knots or so for me and "feels" like you'll roll the tires right off the rims. But I'd think if I was departing the runway for whatever reason, using the tiller would be an option I'd use. It'll be interesting to see the results of the investigation. What's really sad though is how the media gives attorneys watching stuff like this so much fodder to attack the airlines/pilots/crews/manufacturers. Sad, isn't it?If I ever come back in another life, I'd like to be an attorney........they never make a mistake and seem to know how to do everyones job better than the PROFESSIONAL doing it.............)

hoover84

USAir flight 5050
The crew reported that the aircraft began to drift during the takeoff roll which F/O attempted to counteract with rudder inputs. The aircraft continued to drift and Martin then attempted to assist by using the nosewheel steering tiller. The crew then reported hearing a bang followed by continued rumbling. At this point, the abort decision was made. The aircraft had accelerated to nearly 140kts however, and due to the wet conditions of the runway, could not be stopped in time.
Investigators believed the rumbling sound to have been the nose wheel turning and then sliding down the runway. Recovery of the FDR showed that the rudder trim had been left in the full left deflection position throughout the takeoff. in fact, it had been in that position since the aircraft was started at the gate. This would normally be an item on the pre-takeoff checklist and recovery of the CVR indicated that the crew had checked the rudder trim during the checklist.

Sniper

Interesting. Doesn't mean it happened here, but the similarity is compelling.

DublinFlyer

It's things like this I think are very important, and as an F/O, I try to put as many pieces of info like this into the back of my head so when I upgrade to CA I have some sort of clue of what I'm doing.

I've never paid attention to the captain on landing if I'm the one landing, as I'm trying to keep the thing on the runway with the pedals and reverse thrust, but it seems they put their hand on it about 60 and if we're using a high speed, I THINK they use it (with the rudders) at 60. I may be completely wrong though, but then again my attention is elsewhere.

At any rate, I'm just glad those guys up front (and the folks in the back) were able to spend Christmas with those they love. Thank God it turned out okay. You guys are bringing up some good points, it's making this an interesting read!


Oh - and for those with the Auburn comments... well I got a very good education there, but keep in mind it's still in Alabama, so that does have an effect sometimes. It's a good excuse for when I sound like a dummy! haha!

ewrbasedpilot

Wow......how often has this happened to everyone? Read a checklist, and you could SWEAR you checked that item. The mind does funny things, some of which will get us in trouble in a real hurry. Hopefully this is not what happened to these guys. I'd think the rudder pedals would've given them a clue that something wasn't quite right though since they are centered when zeroed out and cattywhompus when trimmed significantly to the left or right.

sailingfun

Boeing states the tiller is never to be used on takeoff or landing. The reason is that the rudder pedels generally allow about 7 degrees of nosewheel movement in either direction. That is about the max you can steer a nosewheel and maintain directional control. Above that the nosewheel starts to slide and you lose all control. There have been numerous incidents where the tiller was used at high speed and the aircraft departed the runway when the nosewheels begin to slide. If in fact the rudder trim was hard over then the aircraft would begin to drift but it should still be possible to control the aircraft with full rudder. If however you got on the tiller at that point you are probably going off the side. Still until the NTSB releases there report its all speculation.