That Pilot Controller Thing and Pay
04-06-2006, 07:46 PM
#1
New Hire
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Apr 2006
Position: ATC-Enroute
Posts: 1
That Pilot Controller Thing and Pay
This post is a bit late. The original thread was closed: “How much should a pilot be paid? Pt. II”, but I can't resist replying to it (I can count the number of times I’ve replied to a thread on the Net on one hand so indulge me)...
Was interested in what I could find about public opinion on ATC, based on a thread I'd read a few days ago (an unrelated forum), and a document submitted by my “boss”, to Congress, about the current ATC contract. Later, after I’d read that doc, someone passed me in the hallway at work, “Hey Jeff, how’s it goin?”. “Great; for an overpaid, under worked, elitist, government employee”, I replied with obvious sarcasm.
So I ‘Googled’ the strings "Air traffic Control" and "elitist" and, viola! Here I am. Slightly mesmerized by all the Controller/Pilot over/under-paid noise from the above mentioned thread.
First, I am a controller (25 years: 9 Approach control, the balance Enroute). The reference to “…all about paychecks and egos” seems all too correct to me here. From both sides.
Now, two quick stories (hang with me please) …
One,
Was faming (circa 2000) with a controller buddy of mine in -757 (something like that; had 2 jump seats). Our landing at ABQ was, to us, ‘interesting’ to say the least. Major gusting crosswinds, blowing dust, yadda, yadda, yadda. As the Captain worked the controls like a maestro (what seemed like full-tilt, left & right), we sat there…VERY quiet I might add (the FO was a picture of concentration as well). All I could think of was, “<gulp>…holy cow this is getting hairy”. He touched her down as smooth as you can be. The two of us (me and my bud) shouted out, “Way to go man! NIIIIICCE landing!”. He didn’t seemed a bit fazed by what he'd done. “Hey, thanks”, he replied, in a business-as-usual manner. The pax in the back had not a clue I’m sure.
Two,
Was giving OJT to my latest Radar trainee last Wednesday (I'm oh-for-two in the last 5 years in getting trainees thru the program - maybe I'm doing something wrong :|). Not naturally a “high volume” sector at all. Yet in spite of this, and actually because of this, there are no procedures. We have to make them up as you go (the old-fashioned way); no more than a dozen departures; equal number of arrivals; and to make things ‘interesting’ a handful of military fighter-bombers in the middle of a random route to blow up something (simulated). All crossing within 10 miles of Approach’s boundary. I call this the “Scatter-gun one SID” versus the “Crash-dive Two” STAR – with a Stealth Attack in the middle.
The trainee is young (mid-twenties), educated (BS in something), CTI school trained, excellent ATC student, with almost two years of time on the D-side (controller assistant), and a coupla months already in Radar training – about 3 years of training & experience so far, total. Well, basically, she crumbled. My best “sugar talk” wasn’t working (come on Linda…what’s your plan..ok, lets get a plan here…keep Cactus going down…FOCUS). Nadda. I think it scared the crap outta her. Even my, “fix this - RIGHT NOW!” directive had the opposite effect. So I fixed it. Nothing non-typical about it all. Happens many times, every day, everywhere.
My point is:
In the first situation, if both the Captain and FO had’uv keeled over right there at the OM, and I had to land that thing, we all WOULD have been dead. I’m sure I could’ve HIT the runway though :0.
In the second, if the Captain of that very same flight had been standing behind me, and I, clutching my chest, did a face-plant into the keyboard, and HE had to “fix it”, he would certainly have given it a “go” I'm sure. I’m equally confident it wouldn’t have been ‘pretty’. All of the flights PROBABLY would have ‘survived’ though (granted after a lot of TCAS RA’s and some extra “G” applied here-and-there).
***********
Okay, here it is, finally, my POINT: Neither profession is about what you actually DO. It’s about what you CAN DO, and what you’ve done to get where you are. Responsibility, decision-making and confidence. The mechanics (of both occupations) are, naturally, required, but can be learned by many people.
***********
You get paid – what you get paid. If you _really_ don’t like that then go somewhere else (I’ll bet everyone on this forum has the drive & determination to do so or you wouldn’t be where you are). Yeah, I have kids and a mortgage too. I’m talking about, mostly, when you’re young[er] and can afford such idyllic thoughts :0
I was a controller in the USAF for a bit at first, making about $20k a year. Time came to get out and go to the FAA Academy. My supervisors, to a man (as they were obligated to do I’m sure), came to me with, “Jeff, you’re a sharp guy, stick it out with us and in four or five years you’ll be where I’m at [E-8 or so], making a cool 40-45g’s a year”. “Thanks boss”, I’d say, “but I’m committed to this”. And in the back of my mind know I have the chance (if I finish high enough – not to mention simply pass) to make DOUBLE that in the same amount of time.
I’m not embarrassed about what I get paid ($117,000 + change last year if you care, taking home about 65% of that). Why should ANYONE be? They offered it to me. I was willing to do what I had to do to earn it, and keep it [the job].
If they cut my pay 30% will I be UPSET!? Ahhhh, yeah. If they offer to pay me more will I take it? Ahhh, yeah. We both have employers who, it seems to me, can’t get their act together at times and they want to take it out on the very people who DO THE JOB = MAKE IT ALL WORK.
It isn’t your job to fill the seats. It’s your job to get the seats from point A to point B, safely and efficiently. It’s my job to try to make ALL of you happy (and those faceless demons of “miles-in-trail” at Traffic Management), and not lose my job every time I open my mouth. Impossible, buy I try.
Observation (1)
I may ****-off that other controller (in the referred to thread) but I think pilots (those carrying warm, pink bodies) _should_ be paid more than they are. Not only more but more than controllers. It only makes sense to me. The key words in my examples above are; “WOULD have been dead” and “PROBABLY would have survived”. Big Sky Theory and all that.
[sidebar]
I don’t completely buy the idea that MY life is never at risk being a factor in compensation. Would you feel worse crunching up YOUR shiny new car (and yourself along with it) or running over someone due to your boneheaded 'lapse' of judgement on the road? How could I live knowing my error hurt – killed – so many people? That statement sounds so over-dramatic to me because, well, I doubt I could do the job if I did think like that (I’m starting wonder if my trainee is ‘thinking’ about that lately).
The competition to get into the an ATP Left Seat is higher. I’ll wager that there are more fledgling aviators looking for your job, at this very minute, than there are controllers, total count, in the USA.
A controller, at the root level, competes against themselves, and in a 'race' against the the number of slots available. Once the FAA has the number they need at that time, and you do what you HAVE to do to ‘make it’, you’re in. Just don’t screw up after that. Being a pilot has the Cool factor. ATC doesn’t. At least to most people (the ‘challenge’ of it appealed to me). Most people haven’t a clue what’s going on five miles above their heads right now.
And...every time a pilot ‘pushes-back’ from the chocks you take not only YOUR reputation out for a spin, you take the companies reputation with you. That amount of responsibility alone should be worth your weight in gold to your Boss.
Observation (2)
I don’t know many (none actually) airline pilots. Closest I can come is an old friend flying F15s (he’s a wing commander now so he’s probably not that happy with the job anymore). Those I met back when you could Fam’ were all, with one exception, quite friendly & professional. I get the impression that some are a bit full of themselves though. Again not knowing any, it’s only an impression.
What I CAN say is that a LOT of controllers are full of themselves. What I can’t understand is; why? Are THEY insecure about what they get paid vs what they do? That's my theory and a problem as I see it. A public relations problem. Any controllers reading this who feels the urge to 'pounce', well, do you feel you can't be replaced? Everyone can be replaced (pilots included). Perhaps we should all remind ourselves of that at the scope/stick. I do however believe those persons are the exception rather than the rule.
Over,
Jeff
Was interested in what I could find about public opinion on ATC, based on a thread I'd read a few days ago (an unrelated forum), and a document submitted by my “boss”, to Congress, about the current ATC contract. Later, after I’d read that doc, someone passed me in the hallway at work, “Hey Jeff, how’s it goin?”. “Great; for an overpaid, under worked, elitist, government employee”, I replied with obvious sarcasm.
So I ‘Googled’ the strings "Air traffic Control" and "elitist" and, viola! Here I am. Slightly mesmerized by all the Controller/Pilot over/under-paid noise from the above mentioned thread.
First, I am a controller (25 years: 9 Approach control, the balance Enroute). The reference to “…all about paychecks and egos” seems all too correct to me here. From both sides.
Now, two quick stories (hang with me please) …
One,
Was faming (circa 2000) with a controller buddy of mine in -757 (something like that; had 2 jump seats). Our landing at ABQ was, to us, ‘interesting’ to say the least. Major gusting crosswinds, blowing dust, yadda, yadda, yadda. As the Captain worked the controls like a maestro (what seemed like full-tilt, left & right), we sat there…VERY quiet I might add (the FO was a picture of concentration as well). All I could think of was, “<gulp>…holy cow this is getting hairy”. He touched her down as smooth as you can be. The two of us (me and my bud) shouted out, “Way to go man! NIIIIICCE landing!”. He didn’t seemed a bit fazed by what he'd done. “Hey, thanks”, he replied, in a business-as-usual manner. The pax in the back had not a clue I’m sure.
Two,
Was giving OJT to my latest Radar trainee last Wednesday (I'm oh-for-two in the last 5 years in getting trainees thru the program - maybe I'm doing something wrong :|). Not naturally a “high volume” sector at all. Yet in spite of this, and actually because of this, there are no procedures. We have to make them up as you go (the old-fashioned way); no more than a dozen departures; equal number of arrivals; and to make things ‘interesting’ a handful of military fighter-bombers in the middle of a random route to blow up something (simulated). All crossing within 10 miles of Approach’s boundary. I call this the “Scatter-gun one SID” versus the “Crash-dive Two” STAR – with a Stealth Attack in the middle.
The trainee is young (mid-twenties), educated (BS in something), CTI school trained, excellent ATC student, with almost two years of time on the D-side (controller assistant), and a coupla months already in Radar training – about 3 years of training & experience so far, total. Well, basically, she crumbled. My best “sugar talk” wasn’t working (come on Linda…what’s your plan..ok, lets get a plan here…keep Cactus going down…FOCUS). Nadda. I think it scared the crap outta her. Even my, “fix this - RIGHT NOW!” directive had the opposite effect. So I fixed it. Nothing non-typical about it all. Happens many times, every day, everywhere.
My point is:
In the first situation, if both the Captain and FO had’uv keeled over right there at the OM, and I had to land that thing, we all WOULD have been dead. I’m sure I could’ve HIT the runway though :0.
In the second, if the Captain of that very same flight had been standing behind me, and I, clutching my chest, did a face-plant into the keyboard, and HE had to “fix it”, he would certainly have given it a “go” I'm sure. I’m equally confident it wouldn’t have been ‘pretty’. All of the flights PROBABLY would have ‘survived’ though (granted after a lot of TCAS RA’s and some extra “G” applied here-and-there).
***********
Okay, here it is, finally, my POINT: Neither profession is about what you actually DO. It’s about what you CAN DO, and what you’ve done to get where you are. Responsibility, decision-making and confidence. The mechanics (of both occupations) are, naturally, required, but can be learned by many people.
***********
You get paid – what you get paid. If you _really_ don’t like that then go somewhere else (I’ll bet everyone on this forum has the drive & determination to do so or you wouldn’t be where you are). Yeah, I have kids and a mortgage too. I’m talking about, mostly, when you’re young[er] and can afford such idyllic thoughts :0
I was a controller in the USAF for a bit at first, making about $20k a year. Time came to get out and go to the FAA Academy. My supervisors, to a man (as they were obligated to do I’m sure), came to me with, “Jeff, you’re a sharp guy, stick it out with us and in four or five years you’ll be where I’m at [E-8 or so], making a cool 40-45g’s a year”. “Thanks boss”, I’d say, “but I’m committed to this”. And in the back of my mind know I have the chance (if I finish high enough – not to mention simply pass) to make DOUBLE that in the same amount of time.
I’m not embarrassed about what I get paid ($117,000 + change last year if you care, taking home about 65% of that). Why should ANYONE be? They offered it to me. I was willing to do what I had to do to earn it, and keep it [the job].
If they cut my pay 30% will I be UPSET!? Ahhhh, yeah. If they offer to pay me more will I take it? Ahhh, yeah. We both have employers who, it seems to me, can’t get their act together at times and they want to take it out on the very people who DO THE JOB = MAKE IT ALL WORK.
It isn’t your job to fill the seats. It’s your job to get the seats from point A to point B, safely and efficiently. It’s my job to try to make ALL of you happy (and those faceless demons of “miles-in-trail” at Traffic Management), and not lose my job every time I open my mouth. Impossible, buy I try.
Observation (1)
I may ****-off that other controller (in the referred to thread) but I think pilots (those carrying warm, pink bodies) _should_ be paid more than they are. Not only more but more than controllers. It only makes sense to me. The key words in my examples above are; “WOULD have been dead” and “PROBABLY would have survived”. Big Sky Theory and all that.
[sidebar]
I don’t completely buy the idea that MY life is never at risk being a factor in compensation. Would you feel worse crunching up YOUR shiny new car (and yourself along with it) or running over someone due to your boneheaded 'lapse' of judgement on the road? How could I live knowing my error hurt – killed – so many people? That statement sounds so over-dramatic to me because, well, I doubt I could do the job if I did think like that (I’m starting wonder if my trainee is ‘thinking’ about that lately).
The competition to get into the an ATP Left Seat is higher. I’ll wager that there are more fledgling aviators looking for your job, at this very minute, than there are controllers, total count, in the USA.
A controller, at the root level, competes against themselves, and in a 'race' against the the number of slots available. Once the FAA has the number they need at that time, and you do what you HAVE to do to ‘make it’, you’re in. Just don’t screw up after that. Being a pilot has the Cool factor. ATC doesn’t. At least to most people (the ‘challenge’ of it appealed to me). Most people haven’t a clue what’s going on five miles above their heads right now.
And...every time a pilot ‘pushes-back’ from the chocks you take not only YOUR reputation out for a spin, you take the companies reputation with you. That amount of responsibility alone should be worth your weight in gold to your Boss.
Observation (2)
I don’t know many (none actually) airline pilots. Closest I can come is an old friend flying F15s (he’s a wing commander now so he’s probably not that happy with the job anymore). Those I met back when you could Fam’ were all, with one exception, quite friendly & professional. I get the impression that some are a bit full of themselves though. Again not knowing any, it’s only an impression.
What I CAN say is that a LOT of controllers are full of themselves. What I can’t understand is; why? Are THEY insecure about what they get paid vs what they do? That's my theory and a problem as I see it. A public relations problem. Any controllers reading this who feels the urge to 'pounce', well, do you feel you can't be replaced? Everyone can be replaced (pilots included). Perhaps we should all remind ourselves of that at the scope/stick. I do however believe those persons are the exception rather than the rule.
Over,
Jeff
