ALPA Vs. Spirit
02-02-2009, 05:52 AM
#401
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Posts: 758
Also remember that if the union strikes and you are on furlough you lose your unemployment benefits. Fun huh...
I don't think we will make it to that point. Even if they could get people to SCAB day one the loss in revenue would be so immense that the company would not recover.
I don't think we will make it to that point. Even if they could get people to SCAB day one the loss in revenue would be so immense that the company would not recover.
You, and the other people who look upon a strike as a positive are making one huge assumption. You assume that the company is scared of a strike.
On what facts do you base this assumption?????
Have you given careful study to the history of union busting that our CEO, Board Chairman and their law firm hold?
02-02-2009, 09:27 AM
#402
First Rule of Fight Club
Joined APC: Jan 2007
Position: My seat smells like cat pee
Posts: 1,536
You, and the other people who look upon a strike as a positive are making one huge assumption. You assume that the company is scared of a strike.
On what facts do you base this assumption?????
Have you given careful study to the history of union busting that our CEO, Board Chairman and their law firm hold?
On what facts do you base this assumption?????
Have you given careful study to the history of union busting that our CEO, Board Chairman and their law firm hold?
02-02-2009, 03:37 PM
#405
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,857
Furlough benefits!,
Travel, w/ your unemployment ck!
Cobra, $ 700/mo avrg.
Recall rights.
About strike, I still believe we are not in the right time for that. If the economics were in great shape, and NK will feel the threat to loose millions and perhaps markets, yes do it, but to loose business nowadays NOT SMART.
Travel, w/ your unemployment ck!
Cobra, $ 700/mo avrg.
Recall rights.
About strike, I still believe we are not in the right time for that. If the economics were in great shape, and NK will feel the threat to loose millions and perhaps markets, yes do it, but to loose business nowadays NOT SMART.
02-02-2009, 04:34 PM
#406
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 194
Southwest just got a raise and across the board improvements to their contract. We are and have been working under a concessionary contract, the economy is such that inflation is making it harder and harder to survive (FO's) under our current contract. I say that they(company) think that the economy, and current job shortages are what will keep us from striking. I say that IF we were to strike Spirit would shut its doors very quickly. I am pretty sure that if they want that to happen, a strike is a moot point, wither way we lose. But If I were Indigo or Oaktree, and I had millions tide into a money making airline, I would not want to see a strike. Just my Opinion.
02-03-2009, 03:06 AM
#407
Banned
Joined APC: Oct 2008
Posts: 1,857
Valid point KJ, but I think the co. could come out ahead on this one.
A strike is a dangerous weapon, doing it would cause the co. money, perhaps lots, investors would be preoccupied, but they could easily close doors, they loose money we loose our jobs, for good.
Or they could just recruit Scabs, and with the surplus of pilots, need for jobs and anxiety out here, I don't really think a lot of ppl would be thinking on the ALPA BLACK LIST, they just want a paychk.
Cheap labor, there will always be candidates for it, we just have to look at almost every Commuter, and major LLC's here in the States.
At the end I think it has been all of our fault, all commercial PILOTS
for letting ourselves to work for US Co. that pay sh-t.
for claims of "UNITY", (love that word), from a union that CAN"T UNITE.
and for the Walma-t attitude that we have convinced ourselves that ITS THE AMERICAN WAY, that cheaper is better.
KJ, I still think a strike would not be the right thing, this is not the perfect time, even after 2 yrs of work. Unfortunately THIS is not the right time. I am NOT an expert on the subject nor I claim to be, it is only another idea.
I don't know if I make any sense.
Respectfully.
A strike is a dangerous weapon, doing it would cause the co. money, perhaps lots, investors would be preoccupied, but they could easily close doors, they loose money we loose our jobs, for good.
Or they could just recruit Scabs, and with the surplus of pilots, need for jobs and anxiety out here, I don't really think a lot of ppl would be thinking on the ALPA BLACK LIST, they just want a paychk.
Cheap labor, there will always be candidates for it, we just have to look at almost every Commuter, and major LLC's here in the States.
At the end I think it has been all of our fault, all commercial PILOTS
for letting ourselves to work for US Co. that pay sh-t.
for claims of "UNITY", (love that word), from a union that CAN"T UNITE.
and for the Walma-t attitude that we have convinced ourselves that ITS THE AMERICAN WAY, that cheaper is better.
KJ, I still think a strike would not be the right thing, this is not the perfect time, even after 2 yrs of work. Unfortunately THIS is not the right time. I am NOT an expert on the subject nor I claim to be, it is only another idea.
I don't know if I make any sense.
Respectfully.
02-03-2009, 04:20 AM
#408
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2007
Position: A320 CA
Posts: 944
I read a few posts here and on the other board that this isn't the right time to strike, and every time I read it I am even more confused! Is there a perfect time to call a strike? When will be a good time?
A union group uses a strike as a LAST DITCH effort to resolve their disputes or force the company to end their mistreatment of the group. We are getting to the end of our list of available options here. We tried negotiating in good faith, we are using the legal system to the max, we have made propoasl after proposal only to be given Contract 9000 after over 2 years of negotiating....so what are we to do? What options do we have left.......We either sit back and do nothing, or we START the process of going on stike. Remember, a vote to strike does not mean we strike, it simply gives the MEC the authority to strike should all other options and efforts fail in negotiations. There is NO WAY that Indigo lets this pilot group walk out of the cockpits, NO WAY! IF we get released, get 90% or better on the vote, and tell the company we strike Friday, midnight, Memorial Day Weekend, you will see how quickly they will all of a sudden be willing to negotiate.
A union group uses a strike as a LAST DITCH effort to resolve their disputes or force the company to end their mistreatment of the group. We are getting to the end of our list of available options here. We tried negotiating in good faith, we are using the legal system to the max, we have made propoasl after proposal only to be given Contract 9000 after over 2 years of negotiating....so what are we to do? What options do we have left.......We either sit back and do nothing, or we START the process of going on stike. Remember, a vote to strike does not mean we strike, it simply gives the MEC the authority to strike should all other options and efforts fail in negotiations. There is NO WAY that Indigo lets this pilot group walk out of the cockpits, NO WAY! IF we get released, get 90% or better on the vote, and tell the company we strike Friday, midnight, Memorial Day Weekend, you will see how quickly they will all of a sudden be willing to negotiate.
02-03-2009, 05:11 AM
#409
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2006
Position: L Side
Posts: 409
I have tried to stay silent on this, but finally I have yielded.
Based on what I saw while I was still flying the line at NK and what I’ve seen over the past few months of following this thread, I believe that NK management has absolutely nothing to worry about. They can and will do as they please as they will have people already on the inside and some on the outside lining up for the abuse and perpetually declining compensation and working conditions.
I realized that, as a pilot group, we had little chance of unity from the time the talk of furlough first came up last year. I repeatedly flew with guys that picked up as much open time as they were legal for and accepted frequent JM assignments even though they knew that other pilots would soon be on the street. Their excuse for those months were that they need to fly as much now so that when the furloughs happen they would have saved enough to avoid flying anything other than their assigned lines. However, as we all know, these perpetuators have not been able to stop themselves.
I am usually the last person to judge others as everyone’s situation is unique, but there are so many occasions that I flew with guys who have played right into management’s hands. I will not name anyone here, but I am sure others flew with them as well:
-There’s the senior captain that, to show his gratitude for having five more years of earning potential (that he hadn’t planned on before), he decided to upgrade his motorcycle and so he needed to fly overtime.
-Another guy I flew with explained to me that he flies overtime because it is his contractual right to do so. He continued my enlightenment by giving details of his recent acquisition of his third piece of real estate- a condo on the beach. In order to meet his obligations every month, he needed to fly ≥ ninety hours per month.
-Last example- an F/O was on track for upgrade and starts to live on that Captain’s pay that he would soon be making. Upgrade didn’t come when expected, but he could not endure lowering his family’s standard of living. So he maxed out all lines of credit and was teetering on the brink of bankruptcy for a while. In the end, the upgrade came but he continued to live paycheck to paycheck. Last I flew with him he was telling me about the family vacation in the Caribbean that he was paying for by flying overtime. Clearly, the family needed that vacation and he needs all the flying he can get.
Does anyone believe that the company is worried about losing these guys or others like them? As a poster said earlier, if it ever gets to a strike, there will be so many that will cross the line it will be astounding. And there-in lies a huge problem- since the company is not worried about a strike, the employees have lost a huge bargaining/posturing tool. Negotiations can be quite similar to high-stakes poker; you must have the ability to bluff if you ever want to end in the money. We cannot attempt a bluff as the company has already seen our cards.
For the guys on furlough who are still unemployed, the time has long past for you to explore other options. To sit and wait optimistically thinking that recall is on the horizon will only cause you ruin. Stop hoping that those that still have a job are doing everything that they can to rally round you; they are not. They will fly as much as suits their needs and help to keep you on the street longer.
I fully appreciate the current state of the world economy and I recognize that there are not that many jobs out there, but there are still some. I appreciate that it is an enormously personal choice where and what type of employment an individual may accept, but think of those twenty plus (?) who bypassed recall- what did they decide to do? I know a few and some went the international route and others stayed within the US, but they all found something else to do. I know for a fact that there were Airbus jobs that required only an ATP, an A320 type and 250 hrs on type that left you with approximately $7,000 tax free per month. Yeah, you had to leave the US, but it beats unemployment, pays the bills (and then some) and keeps you current. Stop hoping that things at NK will get better, the evidence emphatically suggests otherwise. At this point, the only tool we have left is to choose not to line up for more abuse.
Based on what I saw while I was still flying the line at NK and what I’ve seen over the past few months of following this thread, I believe that NK management has absolutely nothing to worry about. They can and will do as they please as they will have people already on the inside and some on the outside lining up for the abuse and perpetually declining compensation and working conditions.
I realized that, as a pilot group, we had little chance of unity from the time the talk of furlough first came up last year. I repeatedly flew with guys that picked up as much open time as they were legal for and accepted frequent JM assignments even though they knew that other pilots would soon be on the street. Their excuse for those months were that they need to fly as much now so that when the furloughs happen they would have saved enough to avoid flying anything other than their assigned lines. However, as we all know, these perpetuators have not been able to stop themselves.
I am usually the last person to judge others as everyone’s situation is unique, but there are so many occasions that I flew with guys who have played right into management’s hands. I will not name anyone here, but I am sure others flew with them as well:
-There’s the senior captain that, to show his gratitude for having five more years of earning potential (that he hadn’t planned on before), he decided to upgrade his motorcycle and so he needed to fly overtime.
-Another guy I flew with explained to me that he flies overtime because it is his contractual right to do so. He continued my enlightenment by giving details of his recent acquisition of his third piece of real estate- a condo on the beach. In order to meet his obligations every month, he needed to fly ≥ ninety hours per month.
-Last example- an F/O was on track for upgrade and starts to live on that Captain’s pay that he would soon be making. Upgrade didn’t come when expected, but he could not endure lowering his family’s standard of living. So he maxed out all lines of credit and was teetering on the brink of bankruptcy for a while. In the end, the upgrade came but he continued to live paycheck to paycheck. Last I flew with him he was telling me about the family vacation in the Caribbean that he was paying for by flying overtime. Clearly, the family needed that vacation and he needs all the flying he can get.
Does anyone believe that the company is worried about losing these guys or others like them? As a poster said earlier, if it ever gets to a strike, there will be so many that will cross the line it will be astounding. And there-in lies a huge problem- since the company is not worried about a strike, the employees have lost a huge bargaining/posturing tool. Negotiations can be quite similar to high-stakes poker; you must have the ability to bluff if you ever want to end in the money. We cannot attempt a bluff as the company has already seen our cards.
For the guys on furlough who are still unemployed, the time has long past for you to explore other options. To sit and wait optimistically thinking that recall is on the horizon will only cause you ruin. Stop hoping that those that still have a job are doing everything that they can to rally round you; they are not. They will fly as much as suits their needs and help to keep you on the street longer.
I fully appreciate the current state of the world economy and I recognize that there are not that many jobs out there, but there are still some. I appreciate that it is an enormously personal choice where and what type of employment an individual may accept, but think of those twenty plus (?) who bypassed recall- what did they decide to do? I know a few and some went the international route and others stayed within the US, but they all found something else to do. I know for a fact that there were Airbus jobs that required only an ATP, an A320 type and 250 hrs on type that left you with approximately $7,000 tax free per month. Yeah, you had to leave the US, but it beats unemployment, pays the bills (and then some) and keeps you current. Stop hoping that things at NK will get better, the evidence emphatically suggests otherwise. At this point, the only tool we have left is to choose not to line up for more abuse.
02-03-2009, 05:35 AM
#410
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2006
Position: A320 Captain
Posts: 194
Those dozen or so people can not run the airline. and yes i am certain that there will be scabs of some sort. I have no money, and I need every penny I make to feed my family, BUT should a strike happen, I will be right there on the picket line. Spirit Airlines CANNOT survive a strike, they cannot replace us quickly enough with scabs. This Profession has seen a steep and steady decline since 9/11 its time to fight to get some of that back. Southwest just got a TA with improvements on a already good contract. surely we can get some improvements to our crappy contract.
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