SWA getting the luv from ATC
08-15-2008, 06:41 PM
#12
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Nov 2005
Position: DC9 Flap Operator
Posts: 172
Ok, first off, all you SWA bubbas this is not an attack on you so take a deep breath, calm down then reply as you like. My gripe is against the FAA, not you.
Has anybody else noticed ATC giving preferential treatment to SWA? I know that in OAK they have their pizza and cake parties to schmoose with the controllers and it's OAK that I have seen it the worst. I think it's smart business for SWA to do those things but find it absolutely disgusting that the FAA, a federal agency, falls for it. I have personally seen at least 3 cases of it in the past 2 years.
1. On a 10 mile dog-leg to final, flaps already 5, told to go-around, did a right 270, got behind SWA flight followed them in for final. There was nobody on the runway, nobody taking off, no other traffic. SWA was too close to us in order for us both to land so they sent us around and landed SWA.
2. Taxiing for full length takeoff in OAK, SWA flight taxiing behind us asked if they could do intersection takeoff. They affirmed and told us position and hold because SWA had "flow". Also see this ALLLLLL the time in Las Vegas.
3. Taxiing north on B for 16L departure out of SEA with SWA taxiing behind us. Without asking, SWA sidestepped to the parallel and came from behind, passed us (we were doing 12-15 Ground speed), they called ready for takeoff on Tower and they gave it to them.....as we both approached the hold-short, we had to slam on our brakes as they came from behind and from the right in order to get to the runway. This one I do blame SWA bubbas because in order to stop from hitting them, we had to slam on our brakes and they also broke protocol....just bad form in my eyes.
I don't blame SWA for most of this, I blame ATC for rewarding them. I'm sure the press would love to hear about a government agencey giving preferential treatment to the most profitable airline in the industry, causing other airlines to burn more gas, be late etc...
The Pelican
Has anybody else noticed ATC giving preferential treatment to SWA? I know that in OAK they have their pizza and cake parties to schmoose with the controllers and it's OAK that I have seen it the worst. I think it's smart business for SWA to do those things but find it absolutely disgusting that the FAA, a federal agency, falls for it. I have personally seen at least 3 cases of it in the past 2 years.
1. On a 10 mile dog-leg to final, flaps already 5, told to go-around, did a right 270, got behind SWA flight followed them in for final. There was nobody on the runway, nobody taking off, no other traffic. SWA was too close to us in order for us both to land so they sent us around and landed SWA.
2. Taxiing for full length takeoff in OAK, SWA flight taxiing behind us asked if they could do intersection takeoff. They affirmed and told us position and hold because SWA had "flow". Also see this ALLLLLL the time in Las Vegas.
3. Taxiing north on B for 16L departure out of SEA with SWA taxiing behind us. Without asking, SWA sidestepped to the parallel and came from behind, passed us (we were doing 12-15 Ground speed), they called ready for takeoff on Tower and they gave it to them.....as we both approached the hold-short, we had to slam on our brakes as they came from behind and from the right in order to get to the runway. This one I do blame SWA bubbas because in order to stop from hitting them, we had to slam on our brakes and they also broke protocol....just bad form in my eyes.
I don't blame SWA for most of this, I blame ATC for rewarding them. I'm sure the press would love to hear about a government agencey giving preferential treatment to the most profitable airline in the industry, causing other airlines to burn more gas, be late etc...
The Pelican
Been 20nm in front of another a/c for approach in antigua and told to hold while the a/c behind me was cleared.
On short final and told to go-around and expect holding b/c Air France needed to do the full procedure in martinque.
Holding short and how many aztec's t/o from the intersections in nassau while we just wait and wait.
And the list goes on and on.....
08-15-2008, 07:55 PM
#15
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Mar 2008
Posts: 712
I have to admit that I've heard this swa argument for years and quite frankly it's old and boring. They make money, nobody else does. When your on top everyone wants to take you down, so people make things up in their minds about preferential treatment. The same could be said of any airline's home base. Operate like SWA and you might make money or operate like everyone else and lose money. Next thread please.
08-15-2008, 08:04 PM
#16
Gets Weekends Off
Thread Starter
Joined APC: Jul 2008
Position: 737 f/o
Posts: 299
2. My airline's homebase is SEA, the place they cut us off the parallel.
3. My airline is making money.
Sorry for the boring thread, maybe we could talk about your leadership style and how pilots are underworked, overpaid cry babies?????
08-16-2008, 05:53 AM
#18
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Jun 2008
Position: Gave up. Staying retired.
Posts: 111
I don't work at southwest, so take this for what is worth. I think as a whole you will find that southwest is the most agreeable airline for ATC, so they are repaid in kind, not that pizza doesn't help. Often I hear ATC asking southwest to do something and they seem to comply without the gripes heard often at many other airline. They are always ready and never waiting on numbers. ATC want to move traffic as fast and safe as possible and so does southwest, so they almost like being on the same team...
As for the other preferential treatment comments/gripes, they are %99.9 Bull$#it. ATC doesn't have the time and space to pull off this kind of crap. In situations where things are tight, tied, or we want to keep things moving, we are going to pick the easiest and most efficient option. If, in these situations, you have a choice of picking the company who usually gets the job done and is cooperative %99.999999 of the time, that is your best bet, and you do it. Ironically, that usually works best for ALL of the aircraft in the scenario, and so the whole operation.
270 on final to go behind? ATC probably had a good reason for it. The name on the side of the plane wouldn't be the reason.
Throw all of the accusations about favoritism out there you want to. Let me share a few observations with you from my 29 years of ATC.
1. Radio procedures. I can count on one hand how many times a SWA jet didn't answer me. When you don't answer ATC, you waste their time in a game where the clock doesn't stop.
I never ran single arrival rush into DFW that the home team didn't have problems listening, and thus, creating work for me or others. I did similar work in SEA, DEN, and SLC. The home teams there were much more on the ball, but nothing like SWA.
2. I have never heard an "on air" ****ing match between SWA and anyone else. ATC or other crew. I cannot say the same of several Legacy carriers, some of whom don't exist anymore. In 1987 I heard one between two AAL guys that I thought was going to result in a brawl on arrival. These two work for the same company and couldn't get along on freq.
3. SWA folks make an effort to get along with everyone. On jumpseat rides you would see the crew treat everyone with respect and friendliness. Ops, the tug, FAs, provisioning, the guy emptying the trash......whatever. Everyone who was involved was considered "Team".
We all have to work together in the system.
I found Alaska, America West, and Continental going the extra mile along my journey as well.
I was on a jumpseat at America West one time. Another pilot wanted to ride, plenty of room in the back, so the Capt. put him on. The FO brought up the point that the guy's company wasn't on "the list". This particular Capt. made a statement that has stuck with me since. He turned to the FO and said, "who cares, he needs a ride, and it takes too much effort to be an A$$h..L."
From then on when ever I saw a fellow controller or pilot making an effort to not get along, I would just say, "it takes too much effort to be an A-hole". Some get it, some don't.
There are less A-holes per square foot at SWA than anywhere else in aviation. It's working very well for them.
Last edited by FORTL; 08-16-2008 at 05:55 AM. Reason: The word A-hole was censored
08-16-2008, 06:54 AM
#20
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Feb 2008
Posts: 19,635
You have to be careful with taxi speeds. If you ever have a incident your fault or not the tapes are going to get pulled. The Boeing manual books speeds are 30 knots max going straight. 15 knots for turns and 10 knots for 90 degree or more turns. These limits are for side loads on the gear. Exceed them and get called on it for any reason and you face certificate action.
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