Mason32

If you believe the solution is to get management and labor to work together then you do not understand what has happened in corporate America over the last 15 years.


Ok, so.... if you know that.... then why would you EVER consider working with them? You must know they will screw you in the end.

AA gear puller

757200ER and other former TWA guys:

I feel the need to put my two cents in here. Yes I'm an AA guy. Got furloughed in 94 so I have a basis of reference. It sucks.
The TWA purchase was an abject catastrophe. For AA, For TWA and for St. Louis for that matter. Not to mention ALL of the TWA FA's. I say again. It was a disaster.
It had no value to AA whatsoever. It was originally proposed as a stop gap to the UA US merger. When that fell through it had no value to anyone except to Carty's monumentally psychotic ego. Tom Horton threatened to leave AA if he persisted with the merger. He went to ATT.
Crandall said after 911 that he would have sold TWA for a buck. All of this is a result of hubris in one man.

Had TWA remained independent their is a small chance they would have survived the post 911 environment. At least they would have been in the drivers seat. AA would be much more financially sound right now, and no, we would not have furloughed 2000 guys. I'll give you 1200 tops. After 911 AA was bleeding 5 million a day. TWA was a major source of that bleed.

Finally, had 911 not occured it is very likely we would not have this type of acrimony as AA would have continued hiring for a few years thereby insulating the TWA guys from furlough. In my opinion, arguably biased, the TWA guys got a pretty good gig overall. Sup CC guaranteed a certain floor for captain jobs in STL. When STL shrunk, inevitable since it has no value to AA, TWA guys are now flying lucrative stuff such as DFW-HNL. The captain on that trip is now junior to me. As a matter of fact, had it not been for the TWA purchase I would likely be a narrow body captain now. Oh well. I live with it. It doesn't **** me off that much even though it should. Life is short.

We can go back and forth on this but the bottom line is that the TWA merger was a Sh...t sandwich for everyone concerned except for Don Carty!

aa73

The problem with your statistics is that you are trying to find equal comparisons for two airlines of massively different size. Of course there will be a higher percentage of TWA pilots furloughed vs AA pilots because AA was like three times the size of TWA! So in order for the percentages to be equal, we would've had to furlough 75% AA pilots and only 25% TWA pilots. How would that have been fair?

Regarding the post 9/11 stuff. Totally pointless to speculate. Nobody knows for sure how many AA would have furloughed after 9/11 had the acquisition not taken place. The TWA transaction was no different than if AA had continued to hire, without any acquisition, and new hires below me would have served as furlough buffer. In essence, TWA pilots coming below me were new hires coming to AA. Yes, they had been working at TWA for years, but it wouldn't have been any different had they quit TWA to come to AA. They didn't - they got a much better deal, getting on at AA with no effort, vs the thousands of pilots who had to go through the whole interview/hiring process to get a seniority # over here. So your point of furlough buffer really doesn't stand, because AA would've conituned hiring new hires who would have also served as furlough buffer.

Finally - a furlough announcement here will MOST DEFINITELY affect both Natives and TWA pilots. The first couple hundred will be TWA, but after that it will be 8 natives to 1 TWA. And don't forget our 385 pilots who are BELOW everybody and haven't even been offered recall once yet - those that were furloughed right after 9/11. All natives. So yes, it will affect us too.

73
818 from the bottom

p.s. great post AAgearpuller... you pretty much nailed it

FliFast

AA Gear Puller,

I thought your post was well though, thank you. I don't agree with 100% , but probably never will. but I think your post sums up both sides in a nutshell.

Quick points, NAAtives were flying STL-HNL when AA got rid of the TWA Pratt-powered 767s. And although TWA was a "bleed", the sale of the TWA's share of the Worldspan computer reservation system netted AMR nearly $450 million. I know these tidbits won't change the crisis we are facing today, but thought I would tail-end them to your well-presented post.

FF

aa73

I think we can all agree that the purchase was a poorly executed, ego driven mess that left a LOT of airline folks' lives upside down. Probably show up in some business school case study as "How NOT to merge with another company."

One thing is for sure - we are certainly continuing the time-honored tradition of still questioning details of the deal long after it passed. So far the two deals I've heard of still being discussed (and *****ed about) are both 1986 deals - OZ/TWA and NWA/Republic (both DOH, btw.)

And finally, there is absolutely no doubt that those that were truly screwed over were TWA F/As with a gazillion years of service and furloughed, as well as TWA CAs and senior FOs who are also furloughed. Anytime there is a merger/acquisition and senior folks like that are laid off, pretty much leaves no doubt as to who got the short end of the deal.

73

B757200ER

PURE speculation. You have no idea what would have happened, and neither do I. I would have been glad to take my chances with no buyout, post 9-11. I had 1100 below me, and would have survived a furlough.

B757200ER

Agree about TW/OZ and NW/RC; both DOH, no furloughs, excellent prospects for merged pilots. Not so in TWA/AA case, obviously. Out of 22,500 TWA employees, only 2500 left at AA.

One more item: If furloughs occur, I'll bet my B-fund almost no native AA pilots get the axe; only ex-TWA pilots will.

Regarding F/As, yeah they all got screwed, poorly treated and every one lost their job. BUT, they didn't lost multi-million dollar careers and lump-sum retirements like pilots did. Different category completely.

FliFast

I have to agree, if any of the pundits here can accurately predict an airline's future, please start buying lotto tickets at the strip clubs.

AMR was not the only suitor for TWA. It was choosen because ironically they offered to keep TWA employees working. Boeing was a suitor and so was everyone's pal, Uncle Carl Icahn.

Never would I guess mighty United, Delta, NW, USAir and almost AMR to join the ranks of bankruptcy. No offense, but I didn't think USAir was going to emerge from BK, I was wrong (thankfully) as I am many, many times when I try to predict what will happen in this crazy mess called aviation.

As many know, I am a redtail through and through, but the crisis that befronts us, will erase many of the "colors" that comprise our industry and hopefully will forge helpful relations amongst us to endure this downturn.

But in terms, even I can understand...furloughes aint fun.

Prepare early,

FF

TonyMontana

If you are referring to operations lock and load, and fire at will, yes-I was on an overnight, and dispatch called to tell me that they (aa) had struck-but that it was already over and we were on for the a.m. departure.

Laughed so hard I couldn't go back to sleep.

aa73

OK, I'll set up a direct deposit from your B-fund to my savings account!

Essentially, you're saying then that only about 200 pilots would get furloughed... because any more than that, they'd be into natives. And I don't see AA furloughing only 200 pilots.

73