UAL Furlough numbers out
06-24-2008, 07:59 AM
#61
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Yes! If a company cancels pensions and rewards management as a result there should be government inquiry.
Yes! if a company sends jobs oversees and rewards management, there should be tariffs or tax penalty.
You free capitalist evoke Reagan everytime the gov sticks it to the middle-class. I think Reagan made good steps to give management some tools to quell over-powerrring labor unions, but it's gotten out of hand. In 1984 average CEO pay was 40 times the average salaried employee's. Now it's over 400 times the average employee's salary. Not the case anywhere else in the G8 world. In the airline industry it's even worse because salary is not proportional to performance. Ergo, the worst run airlines with the worst employee relations, pay there ceo's the most. Creating what I've coined the "un-accountaby wealthy". These unaccountable individuals are running the airlines, and our country, and the great US of A is in a race to the bottom. If all Americans had to live outside of the country for a few years, they'd be willing to admit that we are not the greatest country on earth. We are only the best at greed, arrogance and ceo pay.
Last edited by A320fumes; 06-24-2008 at 08:08 AM.
YGBSM.
06-24-2008, 08:26 AM
#63
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Oct 2005
Position: Capt. B737
Posts: 329
and it makes too much sense for early outs
They're still flying because they "love "it. I've heard the rumors about the package.......I think only half the number will take it. It will help, no doubt. But what's being forgotten is that we are in negotiations as well. Why would the company cede to the union........get rid of a bunch of "yes" voters, empower the union, and mitigate fear from the bottom half of the senioity list?
I really hope I'm wrong........but been down this road before.
06-24-2008, 08:31 AM
#64
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Capitalism
Yes! If a company lays off a triggerrring % of employees and simultaneously seeks management bonuses, there should be some sort of inquiry.
Yes! If a company cancels pensions and rewards management as a result there should be government inquiry.
Yes! if a company sends jobs oversees and rewards management, there should be tariffs or tax penalty.
You free capitalist evoke Reagan everytime the gov sticks it to the middle-class. I think Reagan made good steps to give management some tools to quell over-powerrring labor unions, but it's gotten out of hand. In 1984 average CEO pay was 40 times the average salaried employee's. Now it's over 400 times the average employee's salary. Not the case anywhere else in the G8 world. In the airline industry it's even worse because salary is not proportional to performance. Ergo, the worst run airlines with the worst employee relations, pay there ceo's the most. Creating what I've coined the "un-accountaby wealthy". These unaccountable individuals are running the airlines, and our country, and the great US of A is in a race to the bottom. If all Americans had to live outside of the country for a few years, they'd be willing to admit that we are not the greatest country on earth. We are only the best at greed, arrogance and ceo pay.
Yes! If a company cancels pensions and rewards management as a result there should be government inquiry.
Yes! if a company sends jobs oversees and rewards management, there should be tariffs or tax penalty.
You free capitalist evoke Reagan everytime the gov sticks it to the middle-class. I think Reagan made good steps to give management some tools to quell over-powerrring labor unions, but it's gotten out of hand. In 1984 average CEO pay was 40 times the average salaried employee's. Now it's over 400 times the average employee's salary. Not the case anywhere else in the G8 world. In the airline industry it's even worse because salary is not proportional to performance. Ergo, the worst run airlines with the worst employee relations, pay there ceo's the most. Creating what I've coined the "un-accountaby wealthy". These unaccountable individuals are running the airlines, and our country, and the great US of A is in a race to the bottom. If all Americans had to live outside of the country for a few years, they'd be willing to admit that we are not the greatest country on earth. We are only the best at greed, arrogance and ceo pay.
Why should anyone care about what management makes? The bottom line is that if pilots want the same deal as management then they should have gone to business school. If rampers wanted a similar deal as pilots then they should go to flight school. Labor is a commodity just like fuel or parts. As employees we surrender some of the responsibility for our own livelihood to an outside party. If they decide that they do not need our services anymore then it is the price of being an employee.
This is America and we have a capitalist system. To suggest that management should be punished for doing their job would be to say that our entire system is wrong and that we all should be communist or socialist.
Skyhigh
06-24-2008, 08:38 AM
#65
Underboob King
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Guppy Commander
Posts: 4,412
Pilots get paid to fly. Management gets paid to cut costs.
Why should anyone care about what management makes? The bottom line is that if pilots want the same deal as management then they should have gone to business school. If rampers wanted a similar deal as pilots then they should go to flight school. Labor is a commodity just like fuel or parts. As employees we surrender some of the responsibility for our own livelihood to an outside party. If they decide that they do not need our services anymore then it is the price of being an employee.
This is America and we have a capitalist system. To suggest that management should be punished for doing their job would be to say that our entire system is wrong and that we all should be communist or socialist.
Skyhigh
Why should anyone care about what management makes? The bottom line is that if pilots want the same deal as management then they should have gone to business school. If rampers wanted a similar deal as pilots then they should go to flight school. Labor is a commodity just like fuel or parts. As employees we surrender some of the responsibility for our own livelihood to an outside party. If they decide that they do not need our services anymore then it is the price of being an employee.
This is America and we have a capitalist system. To suggest that management should be punished for doing their job would be to say that our entire system is wrong and that we all should be communist or socialist.
Skyhigh
How is it acceptable for UAL mgmt to be getting bonus's while successfully running one of the country's (at one time) best airlines into the ground?? You are kidding yourself if you think people should be rewarded for failure! They should all end up in prison for taking bonuses and packing their golden parachutes while ruining THOUSANDS of peoples lives, livelihoods, and retirements.
06-24-2008, 08:39 AM
#66
Gets Weekends Off
Joined APC: Dec 2007
Position: B757F CA
Posts: 409
Pilots get paid to fly. Management gets paid to cut costs.
Why should anyone care about what management makes? The bottom line is that if pilots want the same deal as management then they should have gone to business school. If rampers wanted a similar deal as pilots then they should go to flight school. Labor is a commodity just like fuel or parts. As employees we surrender some of the responsibility for our own livelihood to an outside party. If they decide that they do not need our services anymore then it is the price of being an employee.
This is America and we have a capitalist system. To suggest that management should be punished for doing their job would be to say that our entire system is wrong and that we all should be communist or socialist.
Skyhigh
Why should anyone care about what management makes? The bottom line is that if pilots want the same deal as management then they should have gone to business school. If rampers wanted a similar deal as pilots then they should go to flight school. Labor is a commodity just like fuel or parts. As employees we surrender some of the responsibility for our own livelihood to an outside party. If they decide that they do not need our services anymore then it is the price of being an employee.
This is America and we have a capitalist system. To suggest that management should be punished for doing their job would be to say that our entire system is wrong and that we all should be communist or socialist.
Skyhigh
Wow. So easy to say when you're not the one affected, eh? So according to you, it's OK that the pilot profession is decimated, that wages continue to decrease, and CEOs reward themselves, as long as they "cut costs"? And no, that is not management's job. Their job is to RUN the company so that it MAKES A PROFIT. If they fail at their job, they do not deserve extra compensation.
And those UAL folks, and all others, that are about to be furloughed, many for the second time in a short timeframe, deserve some respect.
06-24-2008, 08:52 AM
#67
Ben Salley
Joined APC: Feb 2006
Position: Left
Posts: 924
Pilots get paid to fly. Management gets paid to cut costs.
Why should anyone care about what management makes? The bottom line is that if pilots want the same deal as management then they should have gone to business school. If rampers wanted a similar deal as pilots then they should go to flight school. Labor is a commodity just like fuel or parts. As employees we surrender some of the responsibility for our own livelihood to an outside party. If they decide that they do not need our services anymore then it is the price of being an employee.
This is America and we have a capitalist system. To suggest that management should be punished for doing their job would be to say that our entire system is wrong and that we all should be communist or socialist.
Skyhigh
Why should anyone care about what management makes? The bottom line is that if pilots want the same deal as management then they should have gone to business school. If rampers wanted a similar deal as pilots then they should go to flight school. Labor is a commodity just like fuel or parts. As employees we surrender some of the responsibility for our own livelihood to an outside party. If they decide that they do not need our services anymore then it is the price of being an employee.
This is America and we have a capitalist system. To suggest that management should be punished for doing their job would be to say that our entire system is wrong and that we all should be communist or socialist.
Skyhigh
My position has not changed.
1) I care if an individual gets paid ridiculous amounts of money to cut my salary, I wouldn't care if said individual got paid ridiculous amounts of money to manage my airline profitably.
2) You see labor as a commodity, like fuel or parts. I see labor as Americans who want a better life for their children.
3) America is now, truly a capitalist nation. Started out as a representive, democratic republic. I like the latter.
4) Spent 17 of my 37 years defending a democracy. Don't call me a communist or socialist. Getting out in 3 because I don't like the idea of defending a "capitalism". Didn't sign up to be a mercinary for Exxon/Mobil's record profits.
5)I was speaking to airline pilots. "We" are highly "skilled-labor". Our opinions differ from yours vastly. No disrespect intended.
06-24-2008, 09:02 AM
#68
Banned
Joined APC: Jan 2006
Position: A-320
Posts: 6,929
not to mention that alot of people will get out of this business as a whole this time around. Many people have been burned a number of times. there is only so many times you can bully a kid before he takes his ball and goes home. Good luck to us all in this stupid industry.
06-24-2008, 09:04 AM
#69
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Make a profit
Wow. So easy to say when you're not the one affected, eh? So according to you, it's OK that the pilot profession is decimated, that wages continue to decrease, and CEOs reward themselves, as long as they "cut costs"? And no, that is not management's job. Their job is to RUN the company so that it MAKES A PROFIT. If they fail at their job, they do not deserve extra compensation.
And those UAL folks, and all others, that are about to be furloughed, many for the second time in a short timeframe, deserve some respect.
And those UAL folks, and all others, that are about to be furloughed, many for the second time in a short timeframe, deserve some respect.
Management is paid to make a profit through increasing revenue and by limiting costs. They answer to the shareholders not to the employees.
SkyHigh
Last edited by SkyHigh; 06-24-2008 at 09:10 AM.
06-24-2008, 09:09 AM
#70
Self Employed.
Joined APC: May 2005
Position: Corporate Pilot
Posts: 7,119
Sky:
My position has not changed.
1) I care if an individual gets paid ridiculous amounts of money to cut my salary, I wouldn't care if said individual got paid ridiculous amounts of money to manage my airline profitably.
2) You see labor as a commodity, like fuel or parts. I see labor as Americans who want a better life for their children.
3) America is now, truly a capitalist nation. Started out as a representive, democratic republic. I like the latter.
4) Spent 17 of my 37 years defending a democracy. Don't call me a communist or socialist. Getting out in 3 because I don't like the idea of defending a "capitalism". Didn't sign up to be a mercinary for Exxon/Mobil's record profits.
5)I was speaking to airline pilots. "We" are highly "skilled-labor". Our opinions differ from yours vastly. No disrespect intended.
My position has not changed.
1) I care if an individual gets paid ridiculous amounts of money to cut my salary, I wouldn't care if said individual got paid ridiculous amounts of money to manage my airline profitably.
2) You see labor as a commodity, like fuel or parts. I see labor as Americans who want a better life for their children.
3) America is now, truly a capitalist nation. Started out as a representive, democratic republic. I like the latter.
4) Spent 17 of my 37 years defending a democracy. Don't call me a communist or socialist. Getting out in 3 because I don't like the idea of defending a "capitalism". Didn't sign up to be a mercinary for Exxon/Mobil's record profits.
5)I was speaking to airline pilots. "We" are highly "skilled-labor". Our opinions differ from yours vastly. No disrespect intended.
Pilots are quick to discard a company of something better comes along. There is no loyalty on either side. We all are beholden to do what is best for our own interests.
SKyHigh
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